Friendsgiving 2019

“I can fill a role because society is gonna give you a role, but you're more complex and more dynamic than any role you'll ever choose to fill.” - Erich Wenzel

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In this episode, we are joined by many returning guests, Joe Jackowski, Nick Buegel, and Jordan Criss. As this is a Friendsgiving episode, we recorded before we had our yearly get together. We cover a wide area of topics where we try to get an update on what everyone has been working on, but we quickly dive into deeper waters. We start our conversation in Jordan's recent exploration into Aaron Sorkin. From there, we have a broader dialogue on how fame and power affect people. We then ask the question of what is Art - using Kanye West as an example. The discussion on Art then turns toward a discussion on self-expression and vulnerability. One of the last topics we talk about the philosophy of Jean-Paul Sartre. Then we finally close with what Nick and Joe have currently working on.

Topics on this episode:

Jordan's Explorations Aaron Sorkin
Talking About Steve Jobs
Talking About Steve Jobs - Film
Other Movies Sorkin Worked On
Walter Isaacson Biographies
Benjamin Franklin Discussion
Putting People on a Pedestal
What Fame Can Do or Attraction to Power
Can Pornography Be Used for Education?
Will Taylor Swift Write A Song About Nick?
Fact-Checking and Feeling of Being in the Public Eye
Joe's Interview with UVM Newspaper
Back to Being Famous
Taking Responsibility for What You Say
Carrying the Weight Of Public Opinion on You
Disconnecting the Person From What They Do
What Artist Will Stand the Test of Time
Kanye and Art
Would Kayne Still Create If He Wasn't Famous?
What is Art?
Being Vulnerable
What is Creativity?
Maturity Difference Being An Older Student
Forming Your Identity
Not Solidifying Knowledge And Avoiding Stagnation
The Blind Men And The Elephant
What is Communication?
Language Processing and James Pennebaker (NPR article summarizing pronoun research for lasting relationships.)
Back to Truth and Vulnerability
Right to Speech Vs. Right to a Platform
Taking Responsibility For What You Can Control
A Sense of Gratitude When People Hold To Commitments
Jean-Paul Sartre Discussion
Where Do Morals Come From?
Social Interaction and Positive Psychology (Recommended Book: Flourish by Martin Seligman)
Pragmatic Responding to Ideas in Philosophy
Creativity and Creation
Wrapping Up
Nick's Iceland Trip Podcast Coming Soon
Joe’s Update

Other Episodes you might enjoy:

#53 - Joe Jackowski and Nick Buegel: Meaning, Power and Virtue

#43 - Nicholas Buegel, Joe Jackowski, and Jordan Criss: Morality Discussion

#35 - Joe Jackowski and Jordan Criss: The Creative Process

Check out our blogs:

The One Who Wears The Mask by Jordan Criss

Wearables: Meet WHOOP and Oura Ring by Erich Wenzel

Hard But Worth It: Three Life Changes To Break Out of A Rut by Jennifer McGregor

Connect with Us on Social Media:

Twitter: @erichwenzel & @feedingcuriosity1

Instagram: @evwenzel & @feedcuriosity

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Full Transcript

[00:05:14] Erich: We're back with feeding curiosity and, well, I guess it's a friendsgiving episode.

[00:05:18] Joe: Yes it is,

[00:05:19] Jordan: Happy Friendsgiving and Thanksgiving

[00:05:21] Erich: Because it's the first time we've all been in the same room and fucking forever. At least it feels like it.

[00:05:27] Joe: Were we not when I was home last?

[00:05:29] Erich: But I don't think so. We didn't all

[00:05:30] Jordan: hang out. We hung out.

[00:05:31] Erich: It was like small groups and stuff like that. Nothing crazy.

[00:05:34] Jordan: I haven't seen you in like a month, month. Yeah. I spent a while,

[00:05:37] Erich: so yeah. Cheers. Cheers everybody. We all have beers and that's what friends giving is all about. Just get

[00:05:44] drunk with your friends there. Cans, so you didn't hear the clap. I know. I miss you listeners, and that's really enjoyable beers

[00:05:48] Jordan: for you to verbalize it. I was like,

[00:05:50] Joe: I'll do my best to be slurring my words by the end of this. So you guys have proof, really for your benefit, not mine.

[00:05:57] Erich: I feel like it's your benefit because you're the one who, all right, so who wants to start first about what's been going on with life and things cause it like everyone's been off and doing their own thing.

[00:06:07] Yeah. Dad's tired.

[00:06:10] [Laughter] There's a[00:06:14] bear upstairs?

[00:06:16] I don't know if it actually can be heard all that much on, on this end, but [00:06:19] Jordan: we heard it. Yeah.

[00:06:21] Joe: Wow. I'm voting Jordan goes first cause you know you've had some chaotic, but interesting things going on.

[00:06:29] Jordan: Yeah. So some of the things I can't [00:06:31] talk about,

[00:06:33]but so cool stuff. where should I start? Okay. So, there was a lot of like, ironic stuff going on in the past couple of weeks, like coincidental, weird, ironic. Stuff is just

[00:06:44] Joe: synchronous.

[00:06:44] Jordan: Yeah. Like the universe is like, yeah, this is pivotal. You know what I mean?

Like this time, like

[00:06:50] Joe: going down road during your memoir.

[00:06:51] Jordan's Exploration Into Aaron Sorkin

[00:06:51] Jordan: Yeah. And it's like, it's, it's weird, but, okay. So basically in between, so I left, you know, I'm no longer in the service industry for the most part. Like I'm working here and there, but for the most part left, so that chapter is closed. And it was funny because I got this job, doing insurance sales and it wasn't what I expected it was. So I left there.

[00:07:13] So in between, I had a lot of free time, so I was able to write a lot more and kinda hone in the craft and stuff like that. So, started studying, Aaron Sorkin. Who is now my favorite writer. I used to be like Tarantino and Christopher Nolan.

[00:07:28] Joe: Would just be dialogue guy, right?

[00:07:29] Jordan: Yeah. Like, so I watched Steve jobs in that. So that movie is literally like three scenes and it's nothing but talking. Whoa. And it's like, so each scene, has anyone seen it?

[00:07:41] (Mumbled negatives)

[00:07:41] yeah. It's a great, great film. And they kind of showed Steve jobs and it's like. How he wasn't necessarily like a pleasure to be around anyway, but so it's laid out like the three acts and it's very obvious which act is which act. So it opens up and it's like the Apple, what is it? The Macintosh launch Macintosh I forget exactly what

[00:08:02] Joe: launch the 84 one. Yeah, yeah. [00:08:06] Jordan: That's

[00:08:06] Joe: a Mac. The Mac old commercial where they're running depth through the thing.

It's just like asking them or something through the screen. It's like big brother

[00:08:14] Jordan: and their skinheads actually

[00:08:16] Joe: like the actually hired skinheads.

[00:08:19] Jordan: They shot it wherever they shot blade runner, and so that's cool. Yeah. The original blade runner, blade runner used skinheads as extras. Okay. and so Apple came in and they use those same extras in their, actually skinheads. So that was a whole thing. But anyway, regardless,

[00:08:34] Nick B.: How does it translate? Like why,

[00:08:37] Jordan: I think it was just like they needed someone to look a certain way and they happened to be skinheads there and they were like, well, that's the look we need.

[00:08:44] I don't think it was like

[00:08:45] Joe: It was supposed to be disturbing because it's a play on Orwell, right. They had like creepy, like following the system type people lining rows of chairs, watching a giant screen with the talking head on it, and then the Mac person comes running through triumphantly and throws like a hammer or something through the screen. And they're, like Mackintosh.

[00:09:02] Talking About Steve Jobs ‐ Film

[00:09:02] Jordan: Yeah. So it wasn't, it's not like they were like, let's definitely get something not to the onboard. You know what I mean? It was just kind of like a coincidental thing, I guess.

[00:09:10] But anyways, so that's like the first act and it just goes through like the [00:09:14] issues they had. And you know, he's starting on stage before, like when they're setting up and they go backstage and he talks and then like, they introduce, his ex wife or his ex‐girlfriend, whoever, and his kid that he denies is this kid. they go through that whole thing and it's literally just talking for the whole act. Right.

[00:09:28] The second act is when he gets fired and goes to NXT. and then it's like before he does his big speech with NXT, and then it's like the same kind of thing where he's talking, it's the whole dialogue thing and the third act is him back with Apple. so it was interesting cause I was like, literally this movie is really just three scenes long.

[00:09:44] Like it's just the first, second, third, and it's just talking straight through.

But it keeps you engaged because of how good the dialogue is. The camera work. Nothing crazy. like the didn't do anything, like they didn't reinvent the wheel, you know what I mean? Like, it's pretty standard. It's, it's really, the focus is 100% on the conversation and like kind of, revealing the characters through what they're saying. So like, exposition through dialogue, which sometimes can be really boring, but Sorkin is a freaking genius with words and like how he puts words [00:10:14] together. And

[00:10:14]Other Movies Sorkin Worked On

[00:10:14] Erich: What are movies that he do, just out of curiosity?

[00:10:15]Jordan: Steve jobs, social network. he did the West wing, which is what I'm watching now. he did some more, I'm trying to think of what else he did. going a little earlier, he did this show called sports center sports night or something. It's basically, he was like, it'd be cool to make a show about people that, you know, broadcasted sports like ESPN. And so he did that. I can't remember the other one. But those are the big ones. Like social network and

[00:10:38] Joe: Social network was, yeah, that was amazing. Plus it was. Trent Reznor getting the music for it

[00:10:44] from Nine Inch Nails. Oh, was it really? Yeah. He produced all the music for that, for that movie.

[00:10:48] Jordan: That's pretty dope. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, so I just kind of took a liking to, kind of his style of writing and stuff cause it's a little different how it's so delightful. I was reading the screenplay for Steve jobs and it's literally like, just. It's like 200 pages long, which is super long. Like it's like 30 pages. It'd be like, cause it's so the way that like a screen plays a format like dialogue. It's just longer. You know what I mean? Cause it's a sentence.

[00:11:13] Joe: There's a [00:11:14] narrow margin.

[00:11:15] Jordan: So it like goes down in the middle like this. And it's like literally like there was no action. Or like a description. It's just like enters room, like they sets the scene and then it's just like talking like

[00:11:27] Joe: ticker tape BPPP

[00:11:32] Walter Isaacson Biographies

[00:11:32]Erich: Were they basing this off of a biography or anything like that? [00:11:36] Jordan: And I forget?

[00:11:37]Erich: Is it the Walter Isaacson's biography? Because he's awesome when it comes to biographies. [00:11:42] He's like up there

[00:11:44] like he's the, I've listened to. Three of his biographies. I listened in to Benjamin Franklin, Einstein, and one other one. Or I might have another one to listen to, but he's really good. Yeah. He's like, cause he tries to, like, he's done DaVinci too and so he does really deep research to try and figure out, like become that person to write their thing. Like he doesn't like just highlight who their lives like, like here's their high points, here's their high watermarks. He'll do their high watermarks. But also say like, here's the things that they're, they're fucking up

[00:12:14] with in their personal lives. [00:12:15] Jordan: Shows their flaws.

[00:12:16] Benjamin Franklin Discussion

[00:12:16] Erich: Like, like Benjamin Franklin is like. Has a lot of flaws personally. Same thing with Einstein. Both of those people, they, even though they were great in their domains, they did not have really good personal skills at all. Like within their, like closed group circles. They just didn't know how to be

[00:12:32] Joe: Franklin loved beer. Yeah. I mean, there's some great quote from him. I wish I could remember of the top of my head but it's something like one of God's greatest gifts to man is beer.

[00:12:42] Jordan: I was like, ah.

[00:12:44] Erich: Franklin just like decided that. He's like, yeah, I'm going to go to like Europe and France and just live there and leave his family in the United States at the time.

[00:12:53] Nick B.: Well, that's the thing that's so talk of him having connections with like fancy orgies essentially.

[00:12:58] Erich: Yeah. He was very much a ladies man

[00:13:01] Nick B.: time in Europe. There was like a people that he was like close with and they had not like a cult, but they had an underground group that would go

[00:13:10] Joe: like across the river to

[00:13:11] Nick B.: orgies. And Franklin got in really close with them and his [00:13:14] relations with them actually helped with the U S

[00:13:16] Joe: was this in France? Cause I know he's like, yeah, famous in France. They loved him.

[00:13:20] Erich: He was like one of the first like actually celebrity. [00:13:23] Yeah. You go to,

[00:13:24] Joe: You're like, Oh, thank you. Thank you. Like you, Oh, will have an orgy later. [00:13:28] Jordan: I don't know about, I don't know how accurate the orgy stuff is.

[00:13:32] Erich: The, yeah, he was definitely ladies, man. Like he's very flirtatious. Like even if he didn't really want to have relationship, he would still like flirt with people.

[00:13:38] Jordan: Hm. That's interesting. Did not know much about Ben Franklin.

[00:13:41] Erich: Yeah. There's a lot of interesting stuff [00:13:44] about these like famous people that get highlighted for different reasons, and then like once you start looking into their lives, it makes them a lot less

[00:13:52] Jordan: like put up on a pedestal kind of thing. [00:13:54] Joe: People.

[00:13:55] Erich: Yeah, exactly. It removes the mystique, which is part of, I think, important because it shows like .

[00:14:01] Nick B.: It's also too like trying to, a little bit of defamation, like the whole, I love a good share of Gandhi quotes, but he also molested children. So before like, well, why

would you follow Gandhi? He was doing all that stuff.

[00:14:11] Putting People on a Pedestal

[00:14:11] Erich: I mean, you always find a reason. I mean, even Martin Luther King has [00:14:14] like shady things,

[00:14:15] Joe: like he cheated on his wife. Alot.

[00:14:17] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, well the thing with that is, and fucking Jay Edgar came in and he's like, Oh, I'm going to make him out to be a terrorist.

[00:14:26] Joe: The FBI was recording and keeping a file on all of his, promiscuous affairs. I didn't know that

[00:14:32] Jordan: they were trying to get him on anything that could have crazy kind of J Edgar wasn't the best guy.

[00:14:38] Nick B.: That's interesting though too, because about culture, more religious oriented, but. [00:14:44] Not to defame Martin Luther King at all, but the whole idea of like religion versus called is how the person at the top benefits

[00:14:50] Erich: from the most

[00:14:51] Nick B.: partaking. Then. So the idea that he's part of this huge movement, but also he's benefiting sexually left and right. That's interesting.

[00:14:58] What Fame Can Do or Attraction to Power

[00:14:58] Joe: Plus it's a different world too. I mean, we'll give him the benefit of doubt here. So I'm going to be contrary here. I'm not justifying the fact that he's sleeping with a bunch of women outside of his marriage, like just probably we commit, but like when you get to a certain point in. Almost like a certain [00:15:14] level of fame, that kind of status thing does weird shit to people. Oh yeah. People act weird. Like I talked to a professor once a while back about what it's like to be a professor and kind of the. Like he won't meet with female students unless it's in a public place and they actually, like the administration will advise. Like if you have a meeting with a student, you keep your door open because, Oh, why?

[00:15:44] Because like the students hitting on the professors is a very real thing. And people used to sleep with each other all the time. It used to be rampant, like, I forget where I read this, but really there's a woman talks. She was like, when I was in graduate school, I slept with my professor. I slept with my students. I didn't care. It was great. I've fucking blast, but you can't do that shit no more, no way. But like conflict of interest, all they talked about how he was in a public place, so with this, this girl doing advising stuff or whatever's office hours or something, and he's like, it was a great conversation. Then suddenly I just noticed that

[00:16:14] there was a hand in my thigh and I was like. Hmm.

[00:16:16] That's not appropriate. So you get to like a certain place and then that kind of weird stuff starts to happen. Or you talk to, like Brian Callan had a, talked about how he was out once the comedian Brian count for those that know, was out with some famous like basketball player or something, he wouldn't say who it was. But they went to a club and he was like, there was literally a point where a girl was coming around and taking your friends one by one and parading them in front of us. Parade, like taking, [00:16:44] they're walking up there trying to like sell her friend and leaving and then if they didn't like that one, she'd go friend her other friend. And it was weird. It's literally like.

[00:16:54] There's some weird sexual dynamic there. So you could imagine being Martin Luther

King, it was the first time in your life. I mean, he's a preacher, like suddenly having Lightbox on level. Yeah. Rock star level fame. It's like,

[00:17:06] Jordan: yeah, there's so many layers to like, not even just MLK, but like all of it does that celebrity people always have

[00:17:14] an eyes on, you know what I mean? And like, people know that there's always eyes on you. Like, okay, so let's be real. So if Lebron James walked into a club, not even in a sexual way, but like, you may not care for basketball, but if Phillip Brian told him, you're going to look and be like, Holy shit, that's LeBron. You know what I mean? Like the intrigue and the interest around him. So now turn it to a woman who's like, Oh, if I can seduce him. Who knows what's gonna. You know what I mean? Like

[00:17:36] Joe: I was

[00:17:37] Erich: a security blanket at the very least.

[00:17:39] Jordan: There's so many different layers to it.

[00:17:40] Can Pornography Be Used for Education?

[00:17:40] Joe: Yeah. I listened to, these are two things, and they're, they're connected. So I'll [00:17:44] go through, I'll start with the most civil one and then go to the last level one. So there was an Oxford union debate. About the role of pornography in education, whether it could be used for sexual education, what dance you have. So there's two different sides of the aisle debate, and one of the people that was there was Lisa Anne, the porn star, and she was part of the debate and she was voting against it. She was like, absolutely not. She's like, no. She said she, I think she at one point or debate was like 99% of the things you see, you will never do in your lifetime period.

[00:18:14] She's like, don't pretend that this is normal, that this is,

[00:18:17] Erich: I've heard that I the argument a lot when it comes to this debate.

[00:18:21] Joe: So she was talking about that, but I heard about that from a different podcast. So she was in on with Andrew Schultz, who is a hilarious comedian. He's brutal. Basically. That dude. Goes up on stage with no material and just roasts. The entire front row just rips them apart and it looks at the front row. It's just demolish as people. It's so funny.

[00:18:43] It's

[00:18:44] really funny. I wouldn't sit in the front row,

[00:18:47] she has a conversation with her and she was talking about how there's this under. There's this entire black economy like dark economy that exists in the celebrity world, and she's acted in it where she acts as a mediator between women who are interested in sleeping with professional athletes and professional athletes . She would tell the athlete like, no, that one's not trustworthy, or this one is,

[00:19:14] you can talk to these girls. They're going to shut up. They're cool people like. Everything is so on the down low and there's literally like curators that are running how this whole thing works. So then nobody talks

[00:19:23] Erich: Is it so that these athletes don't have to worry about and get sued with.

[00:19:27]Joe: Yeah. Like cheating. Adultery or not necessarily, you know, probably for some of our money, but really it's, yeah, it's protecting money. It's, it's like, is this chick a put a hole in the condom and then get $100 million from you or something?

[00:19:41] Erich: Cause it happens in college athletes. I've heard stuff like that where [00:19:44] girls will like tamper with condoms so that they basically get this guy forever.

[00:19:49] Joe: It is. People act nuts way around famous stuff. It's insane. They go batshit crazy. Celebrities too. I mean, this is right. I've been talking about almost the craziness of the people that are pursuing the celebrities, but if you're dude and you've never seen this before you, there's plenty of stories of guys who want fucking nuts and then guys who think become entitled as a result, or they think they're entitled to the sacks because now they always get it all the time. It's like, so

[00:20:14] there's that dimension to it. It just gets complicated.

[00:20:16] Erich: It's a whole muddy water. No, it's not Jesus Christ.

[00:20:20] Jordan: Yeah, they need the, well. I would like to see that kind of veil lifted off the celebridom because in that realm it gets so deep, it gets so dangerous. You know what I mean? Where it's like people just get literally crazy. You know what I mean?

[00:20:33] Erich: Johnny Depp is a good example of this. The craziness.

[00:20:37] Jordan: I don't know how to tell your

[00:20:38] Joe: crazies that happened to him.

[00:20:39] Erich: He buys like houses, like they had to stop him from just buying stuff.

[00:20:42] Joe: He just buys shit. [00:20:44] He does all these Disney movies cause he's broke.

Oh really? Like dead bro. He's like, got so much debt. It's

[00:20:49] Jordan: out of this world. Really. I don't know.

[00:20:50] Joe: Yeah, I got fuck ton. And part of it too. Part of the debt is a result of his, ended relationship with Amber heard. Oh my God. Came after him for like straight up abuse, like

[00:20:59] Erich: example of craziness,

[00:21:00]Joe: like going in because she's put in for him for everything and I think she won, but then they went back and. They reviewed all the evidence and they had like another lawsuit and basically they found out that she was actually abusing the fuck out of him. Like beating him all [00:21:14] kinds. Oh yeah. It was nuts. Like total turnover. They're like, what? Cause they got new evidence. They're like, she lied the entire time.

[00:21:20] Holy like, Oh yeah, I was. Crazy people, not crazy things, and they are wanting relationships and when they're famous or even around it, that's not love, man. I know. I don't know what that is. That's just an insane need for validation to the point where you have to coerce someone into it. Or maybe you feel power because you dominate them. You [00:21:44] know? Yeah. It was crazy.

[00:21:46] Nick B.: I was just thinking about that too, like before I got here today

[00:21:49] Joe: Sleeping with celebrities? Yeah,

[00:21:55]Will Taylor Swift Write A Song About Nick?

[00:21:55] Nick B.: I was going to say that. I was like, I talked a lot of smack about Taylor Swift, but if she ever flirted with me in a bar, I'd probably, you know,

[00:22:00] Joe: it's worth being in a song. [00:22:04] (Laughter)

[00:22:04] Erich: Do you think she's been asked are going to write a song about me now.

[00:22:07] Joe: Oh, 100% Oh, you know, she said, I don't even ask. I just be assume.

[00:22:11] Jordan: I'm like, all right. Yeah. At this point,

[00:22:12] Erich: I think he's tried to listen to them. They're like, [00:22:14] which one's mine?

[00:22:14] Joe: I assume, and you know what, it would end in six months late later, a new album will come out and be like, FJ would be like the name of the thing. And I'd be like, ah,

[00:22:29] Fact Checking and Feeling of Being in the Public Eye

[00:22:29] Nick B.: no. But what I was thinking about was there's a podcast with us, Joe, me Wenzel, and I mentioned like Johnny Depp. Having history of beating his wife. And now this year the more history has come out and that's been wrong. And you know, I was thinking about, you know how [00:22:44] often we do the best with the information we have at our disposal, and this had been a thing for years. So it was like, okay, it seems pretty clear that Johnny Depp might be an abusive lover. Turns out

[00:22:52] Jordan: that's another side of the coin. I'm just

[00:22:54] Nick B.: kind of like men. I like basically put that information out there. Like it was something I saw firsthand, but because I had been exposed to this infantry information for so long,

[00:23:03] Joe: you know, can you imagine. I couldn't distress a being in that situation and in the public eye during that situation. Oh my God. Like I was, I did a interview recently [00:23:14] for the, the Michigan daily, which is like the student run newspaper at UVM, but it's also, which sounds like, okay, student run, but it's also like the largest in print newspaper in Michigan. Like, well, when people read that than anything else, basically, as far as newspapers go

[00:23:28] Erich: for imprint too. That's crazy. [00:23:29] Joe: Like they print it, right? [00:23:30] Erich: Cause the most

[00:23:31]Joe's Interview with UVM Newspaper

[00:23:31] Joe: PR papers don't get, it's probably online. It is online for sure. But yeah, and I might have something about that wrong, but whatever. It's a huge newspaper. and I did an interview for them because they were talking about vouchers and the, there's a bill being [00:23:44] proposed that would make your source of income a protected class. So that. Military veterans who get vouchers from the government to pay for their rent would be protected.

[00:23:59] So a, if they're like, Hey, listen, I have a hundred that you get it because you're super disabled, like you'll never walk again, kind of thing. And so they can't get a job. So the government has to give them money so that they can afford to live. Right. So they give that voucher to their [00:24:14] landlord. The landlord turns it in and then they get their money. But it's way more complicated than that. The process of getting that money through the voucher for the landlords is insane and it's not consistent. So you'd be in a different jurisdiction and suddenly it's totally different. So they could have one guy with a voucher in this County, and then another dude with a voucher and the other County, and the whole thing is totally different. And the way it is, an absolute mess, the

[00:24:36] Erich: way it's handled is not even similar at all.

[00:24:37] Joe: Welcome to bureaucracy. It's a federal government thing. So the moment that they're involved, it's just, there's so much going on immediately it [00:24:44] becomes more complicated than perhaps it needs to be. Right. But so.

[00:24:48] They wanted a veteran's commentary on it. They wanted to know somebody's opinion, so I was like, sure, I'll talk to you. Did a little bit research, made sure I had my opinion in order and the, I was going to get this interview and my position was basically, listen, you have this, you can have a contract argument with the veterans.

[00:25:07] If I am a military person, I sign up and my end of the bargain is that I serve honorably. [00:25:14] You're under the bargain is that you provide me with a salary and then all the benefits and that come with it, including those vouchers. If I ended up in a situation where I'm that disabled, that's your end of the bargain. So if you could say that the federal government needs to protect that class for veterans because they need to uphold their end of the bargain right there. Part of that contract they signed in, they agreed to it just like I agree to it. Okay. So it's your responsibility to make sure that it happens, but.

[00:25:38] The bill was also tacking on a huge protection for low income families. [00:25:44] You can't use that same contract argument with low income families. They didn't sign a contract with the government. They didn't work for four years and served honorably. There's no equivalent there. So regardless of your opinion about whether or not those, whether or not those families should be getting those vouchers, it's just a separate issue. So to tack it on and pretend like they're the same thing is disingenuous. And that was my whole position. Like, you know what really is happening here is that politicians are like, [00:26:14] nobody's going to vote against veterans benefits because that looks horrible on your voting record. So we'll slip in this with it. And that's what basically my position was.

[00:26:23] But before I even did that, I was like, I was nervous cause I was like, Oh man, this is not a popular thing to even say because very democratic place. A very liberal campus to a very liberal, a very liberal newspaper, newspaper, and and I am taking a [00:26:44] contrarian view to what could be seen, though it's not what could be seen as being against welfare for low income families. I was like, this could be completely spun . So I took it. I was like, I'm going to do it anyway, but I was nervous. I was like, I'm taking a risk here, because it could be, I don't have, like I'm Joe Schmo, like I don't have any like means to defend myself. If they put something, like if a this guy said this, like if they wanted to smear me, I [00:27:14] can, I can't do anything, you know, I could yell to do that. Check the interviewed me, but right. The second accomplish. I mean like, it's like,

[00:27:21] Erich: you know, they're going to take the what you say and then turn it into a spin it [00:27:25] Joe: right for all that good of an interview.

[00:27:27] Erich: Take it out of context rather.

[00:27:28]Back to Being Famous

[00:27:28] Joe: I think that my, I wasn't as clear in my thinking as I am now, now that cause I just have more time to think it over. Right. Like I knew basically a thing, but how to explain what I was trying to get at. I don't think I did as well as I did just did now. But my whole point is with this is that. [00:27:44] If I was nervous just for something as simple as potentially getting smeared a little bit by a student led newspaper, what would it be like to be Johnny Depp?

Where on the national scale international scale, you're being falsely accused of sexually abusing someone like Jesus

[00:28:05] Jordan: Sexually abusing or [00:28:06] Joe: just physically abusing. [00:28:08] Jordan: That's a whole different,

[00:28:09] Joe: I think I'll say physically abusing, cause I'm sure that. [00:28:13] Erich: That was when we talked. I [00:28:14] said before, [00:28:14] Joe: yeah, I'm pretty sure it's physical. Okay.

[00:28:16] Jordan: Either. Either way. I feel like those kinds of things. Should it be so public like, yeah. Because until, until you know, or until the facts are out, because that's like what happened. You know, he gets written off last year, you know, as soon as last year. It's like, Oh, he's, you know, this guy beats his wife or whoever she was to him. I don't know anything about this story. So I'm just speculating here. But like, you know, he gets written off like this and then a year later it's like, well no, that's not what happened. You know what I mean? It's like, it's just, it's, [00:28:44] it's, it causes too much stress on a person. Cause at the end of the day, they're all people to know. Like, while millions of people are like watching my every move to like. You know, so specifically, you know what I mean? That like if I fuck up once I'm fucked. And that was kind of a thing that we had in the Liam Mason thing where, Oh yeah,

[00:29:02] Erich: I mean, that's a really good example.

[00:29:04] Jordan: You know, there's so many examples, but like he says one thing and like it blows up and maybe he, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you can disagree with it, or you're like, well, he didn't mean it that way. Whatever the [00:29:14] side or the side of the corn you're on. There's this, like you're so close to your watch set, you don't have the ability to make a mistake, and it's nice to be just a regular person, quote, unquote, to have the freedom to make those mistakes because then, you know, like, well, if I fuck up, I can, I can fix it. You know what I mean?

[00:29:30]Erich: Like I can try again. Yeah. At the very least, right.

[00:29:33] Joe: My career won't be ruined if they smear me. Right.

[00:29:38]Taking Responsibility for What You Say

[00:29:38] Erich: He just did it right now is he's taken it upon himself to. Reiterate on the point and say, maybe I didn't say [00:29:44] this as well as I could have in that moment, but he still cares enough to actually even try to explain it again. And you know, thankfully we do have a platform that we can do that, right? And know, because most people don't do that.

[00:29:54] Joe: It could literally be the case that they did. They totally misconstrue everything that I say and maybe paint me as a contrarian, which actually I kind of am a country on you, but I guess I would say more like as a, a baseless. Dislike for low income families, right. However bad you want to smear it, maybe they do that. [00:30:14] I can be like, okay, how about we do an actual interview? I could literally call and be like, listen, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Like, I think you guys just got something wrong. Let me give you, let me try to clarify this thing and then maybe we can have another interview or whatever and be fine. You know, like,

[00:30:27]Erich: I've had more time to think about my position. I'm not opposed to this thing. Let me try to reiterate.

[00:30:32] Carrying the Weight Of Public Opinion on You

[00:30:32] Joe: The stakes are just lower. Yeah. That's what it is. The stakes are just lower for me. So, but the fact, just the fact that I was like, Oh man, I couldn't imagine. What it would be like to be like, [00:30:44] I'm going to trial for something I didn't do. If I lose, like the whole world is going to think that I beat my wife, like, Oh my God!

[00:30:53] Erich:That's a huge weight to carry around.

[00:30:55] Joe: Could you imagine going through the airport and knowing that everybody that recognizes you thinks you beat your wife

[00:30:59] Erich: and you're a piece of shit for it?

[00:31:01] Jordan: I wouldn't be able to leave the house. Does to be honest, like I wouldn't be able to if I knew that, especially if it's something I didn't do. You know what I mean? Like if I knew I was innocent, but like you go to the grocery store and you trying to check out for Thanksgiving dinner, you're like, I just want to [00:31:14] get my Turkey and the lady cash in your Turkey. It's like. You know what I mean? Like you're a piece

[00:31:18] Erich: of shit, like she's just staring laser beams. Do you

[00:31:21] Jordan: know what I mean? So that makes sense. Why these celebrities don't,

[00:31:23] Erich: I mean, in the end, that's why they do the, they try to be as normal looking as possible with like sunglasses hat and they'd go incognito mode. Basically. It's like,

[00:31:31] Jordan: it's, there's too much. Like it's, I don't even know if it's idealization, but it's like too much.

[00:31:38] Erich: Too much. It's like a spotlight on your life. Yeah. Too much introspection into a person's life. Like you care more about someone [00:31:44] else's life than your own life.

[00:31:46] Disconnecting the Person From What They Do

[00:31:46] Jordan: It should be just about the art or whatever it is that they're famous for. Yeah. I like art.

[00:31:51] Erich: You've done that before where we talked about like just disconnecting the person from what they do.

[00:31:56] Jordan: Right.

[00:31:57] Erich: And being like, okay, you can like them for their artwork or whatever they create, and then you can like, then like who they are personally, who whatever they stand for, you can just be like, alright, there it is, but you don't have to touch it.

[00:32:09] Joe: This is, this is so evident. Like [Clearing Throat]

[00:32:13] What Artist Will Stand the Test of Time?

[00:32:13] I was talking with my [00:32:14] ex once about. what artists would we remember in the future? Like we remember Led Zeppelin and the Beatles, who is it going to be? Right, right from now, who's been the ones that are gonna stand the test of time? And I thought, Kanye West, I was like, Kanye West is going to be one of those. And she was like, no, I don't like them. It wasn't . It wasn't, it wasn't an argument for why he wouldn't be that. It was like, no, he sucked

[00:32:38] Erich: and I was like, okay, but are [00:32:40] Joe: prolific

[00:32:41] Erich: Kendrick would probably be the can

[00:32:42] Kanye and Art

[00:32:42] Joe: Kayne West is what, yeah, [00:32:44] Def Kendrick, definitely. But like Kanye West is one of those people who is so crazy out there that you really do just have to be like, all right, I don't know how you're acting on Twitter or whatever. I'm going to put you over there, that box. But like the things that you create, I'm going to put in this box over here. I'm to analyze that way. What it is. Do you see as new, or listen to this new. Gospel album.

[00:33:02] Jordan: Yeah. I actually liked that. I thought it was amazing first rap albums where there's no swearing, like really at all. Whoa. Yeah.

[00:33:10] So Alex was actually telling me some interesting cause he watches keeping, I don't [00:33:14] know if she actually watches it. Yes, she actually watches keeping up with the case. and I guess, or I don't know where you saw this, but she can clarify that letter, but point is apparently Kanya would make, while making this album, anyone who was associated with it. In any aspect had to like devote themselves to abstinent, absent laity

[00:33:35] Joe: to be abstinence,

[00:33:36] Jordan: abstinence, whatever. I made that up. you're talking about it sounds good. I'm going to try to use that more.

[00:33:47] I like it.

[00:33:47] Erich: It sounds good. It should be a word because it's like, you know. Yeah. It's like spontaneous, but you know, you're trying to be .

[00:33:54] Joe: Yeah, whatever, whatever.

[00:33:57] Jordan: We're trying too hard to you, but you know what I'm trying to say. So point was, but he made people follow these like strict, like Christian rules. If there were any in any aspect collaborating on this album. That was the point. I was like, can't have sex, can't do this, can't drink, and all this stuff. And like. I guess to the point where Kim was even like, it [00:34:14] was getting hard to be around him cause it was so intense and I was like, wow, fucking relax. You know what I mean? And like, so that's how he takes his art so seriously. So like, I don't know. I feel like you have to respect that. Whether you like it or not, you kind of have to respect that he takes it that seriously. No, he's definitely

[00:34:29] Erich: an artist artist, if that makes sense.

[00:34:31] Joe: He's not even a musician really. I think he's an artist. What he's really doing is he's, he's, it's. I don't even know how to put it in words. It's if you watch his interview with David Letterman on, My [00:34:44] Guest Tonight, I think is his name on, on Netflix. That's a great interview. Yeah. And I was like, that was the first time they really understood what was going on with Kayne West. And I was like, Oh, you're not like, I get it. You're so completely, it's like total vastness is everything is open to him. Everything is open for possibility, including. The crazy shit. It's like you can make a beautiful piece of music, an album that pulls in all these ideas [00:35:14] visually, lyrically, musically, all this and what gets caught in the net because of, it's like the personality that would catch that in the net is the same. That would catch a. Would catch Taylor Swift winning an award and then be immediately not be able to help himself from going up there and having this moment, right. He has to, he has to go out there and create music. He has to go out there and express himself if that expression is. Through music and art. Good. And expression is kicking tailors off of her moment. No, that's so good.

[00:35:45] Erich: Yeah. His filter, his filter is not all there because just, just so expressive

[00:35:48] Joe: that, yeah, it's, it's completely UN filtered, like rocket fueled self‐expression. Yeah.

[00:35:57] Jordan: And we were actually at a, so Rachel had her friends giving last week and we were. The guy that earlier were saying reminds me and Alex of you, his name is Alex.

[00:36:05] Would Kayne Still Create If He Wasn't Famous?

[00:36:05] Weird. Too many Alex's, but yeah, but he name names. Yeah, we were, we were talking about Kanye West briefly, and basically it was like [00:36:14] we're, the basic point of the conversation was like, if people didn't care, would he still do that? Like what? He's still and hewould, but my point is. People shouldn't care. You know what I mean? Like I guess you're saying student cares too harsh, but like,

[00:36:30] Erich: what do you mean? Shouldn't care about?

[00:36:31] Jordan: Like they shouldn't hold it with so much weight. Like people genuinely dislike a person. Like I guess I don't know where your ex was coming from, but like people genuinely would dislike a person just because they come off a certain way, you know what I mean? Or differently. And it's like, well, I [00:36:44] don't agree with that. He's so crazy. It's like, okay, well just stop pulling it. You don't know him

[00:36:48] Erich: that for a second. Yeah.

[00:36:50] Jordan: The majority, like majority of people don't. We'll never meet as celebrity, don't know celebrities. So you shouldn't, like with things that you hear in the news or like whatever outlet you said, it holds so much weight with it because you don't know them as a person. So there's no context to say that, Oh, he's actually crazy. We're like, well, you've never spoken with him before in your life, so how is he really crazy? Or is he always been like that? Whatever. You know what I mean? But we hold so much weight with like. [00:37:14] All this stuff. So then it creates this stress within, like if I fuck up, I'm fucked. Like I won't have a career anymore. And it's not, my career isn't me. Me being Johnny, Deb, my career wasn't, I'm waking up today and I'm Johnny Depp. And that's what I get paid for in my career is acting career as an art. So people will look down in my art regardless of how good I am, a great I am.

[00:37:35] What is Art?

[00:37:35] Erich: Because I think it's, I mean, there's a perfect example that literally just happened yesterday.

[00:37:39] So. when I showed you the, the, the raw emotional version [00:37:44] of the giving thanks bonus episode. Yeah. So I was here sitting alone like my mom was at work. My brother was with Daria his girlfriend, and I didn't have anything to do, like there is no family here. I was just kind of. Doing my own thing as if it was a normal off day. It just so happened to me. It was Thanksgiving. And so I was in a reflective Headspace.

[00:38:02] Thinking about life basically, and just thinking about what the holidays usually represent for people and how, you know, modern society just kind of has sucked away to some of the most meaningful moments of.

[00:38:14] From people and like friends giving is like, I've been, it was stressful getting this all planned together, but then also now that it's actually happening, I'm like super excited for it because like bringing everybody together, you know, for as long as we've all known each other is like a huge reason why this podcast even happens.

[00:38:30] And you know, I was just thinking about it and I recorded the first version of it and it was totally ad‐libbed. I just. Sat here like right where I'm sitting right now and just started talking and all of a sudden it just like this raw emotion about all [00:38:44] the things I've been thinking about, you know, when it comes to meaningful relationships and how to think about the holidays and beyond that, how to think about recontextualizing our social environments so that we can look past the things. Cause it's like, Oh well, you know, I want that next to TV or that next, whatever the fuck it is like. And then we, we don't. We stop ourselves from being like, Oh, well I'm too busy. I can't see you. You know, we stop ourselves like, Oh, you want to grab dinner? Nope. Sorry, got to, you know, get another [00:39:14] work thing done. Got a few emails and then we saw like, we always cut ourselves off from the things that truly matter because they don't add in quotation marks, value, you know? And then when I showed it to Joe, he's like, that needs to be up now. And he, he's had a really good thing and he's like, he's like true art is when you're feeling it the most.

[00:39:33]Joe: It's, yeah. You want me to riff? Okay. I have a whole philosophy on what art is, which is like is, I think is defined by, [00:39:44] it's an attempt to express something like a deeply personal truth. Something that you need a medium that has. Free flowing, creative spirit to express. You might paint it because you don't have words for it, but you have an image of what that thing looks like. Or you might write an entire book, just characters acting a certain way because you're trying to get at some thing that is true that you don't quite know how to say, some issue, whatever it might [00:40:14] be, and if you're going to do that. To actually accomplish the expression of this personal truth. In order to do that, you need to be willing to be vulnerable because pure honesty is vulnerability. It's, here's what I think, and now that I really tell you what I think, I am now vulnerable to your criticisms of it. So what. [00:40:44] Wenzel did I saw is analogous to artwork, which was that I'm going to self‐express honestly as best as I can, and it might be emotional and vulnerable, but that makes it more on the Mark. More true than it would be if I tried to hold back. So that's why I wouldn't, you did that. I was like, yeah, okay.

Yeah. Put that out. Yeah. That one out too.

[00:41:09]Being Vulnerable

[00:41:09] Erich: To put it in context. The first version. So that was the first version. I didn't even think about it. I just sat [00:41:14] here and all of a sudden it was like, by the end of it, Jordan, you listened to it. I was, you could easily tell I was holding it in. And, Like I, I went to the bathroom like, okay, I need to, I need to collect myself. And then I rerecorded it to the original version or the word original version that I put up. And it was less than 24 hours later that I was able to play it for Joe. And it was like, cause I felt it too, like you know when something feels right, but it's also like, it's still scary. Like the vulnerability thing. It's like, Oh well someone's going to judge me like he, here he is, he's talking to [00:41:44] himself and he's getting crying. You know? That's where my brain goes. It's like, Oh, I'm like. Choking back tears and things, but then like as soon as I put the real thing up and I shared it to all of you guys, Mike texted me personally and he's like, dude, you had me in tears. And I was like, what the fuck? Like it's just so, I don't know, it's just like,

[00:41:59] Joe: it was true.

[00:42:00] Erich: It's just like so much of this like project is so deeply intertwined to like something deeper in my being. And then like the, the major part of it is like sharing it. Sharing you the process of it with all of you guys as [00:42:14] what. Breathes life into it for me, and it's like being able to have an excuse, like if this is the job that I get to create for myself, but also have the excuse to make sure I can keep elaborating and filling in the gaps with my friends so that as we get older and busier, we have the reason to be like, yo, let me like sit down with you and actually have a real conversation with what you're all about forever. I guess the point is that as we get older and more busy, it's like, okay, here we go. Let's like lock into the podcast so you can share what you're doing to the world too. [00:42:44] Like it's like double whammy because we're all like doing awesome shit for lack of a better term. It's fucking awesome.

[00:42:51] And it's just like this crazy thing that when you allow someone to express themselves authentically and authentically is such a strange word to talk about because it's just like passion that they light up in a different way that you don't normally get to see someone because. It's so surface level on the regular [00:43:14] basis, you know, because everyone talks about, you know, how they got caught off in the morning or why they didn't have whatever for lunch or whatever the fuck it is. You know, or why their cat is annoying them. And when you get a chance to say, I want to see you, the real you, not, not the curated version of you, I want to see what moves your soul and let's like lights your eyes on fire and what you won't shut the fuck up about. . People are like, wait, what? You actually care? And that's what throws people off, and then [00:43:44] all of a sudden, once you give them the leash to be like, take the reins. Like, see, let's see where it goes. Then people get like, Oh shit, I get to express myself for real, and then you get real shit.

[00:43:57] You know? It's, it's weird to say like sometimes. This stuff. It almost feels like you're creating music in that way where you get to let someone just express themselves. When in reality they have, they feel like they're so average that they pretend like they don't have something. We're [00:44:14] saying when reality, we all have something we're saying.

[00:44:24] Apparently that was a mic drop.

[00:44:26]What is Creativity?

[00:44:26] That was probably, should cut that out later and posted, posted everywhere. But yeah, I mean, you guys do a lot of, have done a lot for me to re-contextualize what creativity means. As an engineer or someone who's pretty [00:44:44] analytical, I've always kind of thought creativity was this very different thing than who I am. But over time, and as I've done this project for now, almost two years, I've been able to redefine what is creativity in a way that is like, Oh, okay.

There's a way more nuance to what creativity can be depending on what your skill set is. Right. You know, and I mean, each of one of us could probably come up with their own version of what creativity means to each of us, which is awesome. It's [00:45:14] pretty cool. And I dunno, just like super thankful for all of it. It's a crazy thing.

[00:45:20] Joe: I'm thankful that we have this friend groups. So, [00:45:23] Jordan: yeah.

[00:45:23] Erich: I mean, we were fuck. We were at the gym today and we're like, how old were we when we like met each other? And it was like 20 years. Like if it was like first grade, it's like 20 fucking years.

[00:45:31] Joe: It's really weird. Yeah. [00:45:33] Joe: Yeah. Cause I'm 27 now,

[00:45:34] Joe: so that's first. I think I met [00:45:36] Joe: first, second grade,

[00:45:37] Erich: second come. You had the same teacher for second grade. We do monsters.

[00:45:42] Jordan: I remember that my nephew had [00:45:44] her as a teacher. No way. What still teaching and I'm like, that's so weird. But then you wonder, you're like, well how old were they really? You know what I mean? Because I don't know. Our peers, our teachers now, they're like, Oh, I teach fifth grade here. Like.

[00:45:56] Erich: They're 25 right?

[00:45:57] Joe: I mean, who let you anywhere near kids.

[00:46:02] Jordan: Yeah. I thought you couldn't be by a park. What do you do? [00:46:08] Oh my God, that's amazing.

[00:46:16] (Laughter)

[00:46:16] You're doing a school. It really is weird because when you're six years old, I mean, you look at these. 20 years old. Right? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like they seem like your parents. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's weird. But, man, it's weird how time works.

[00:46:30] Erich: I know. Right?

[00:46:32] Jordan: Cause it, I mean, it doesn't seem that long ago now. If you really think about it, like, okay, so think about your life 10 years ago, where, where are we? 10 years ago, it'd be

[00:46:41] Erich: 2018 we were 16‐17 [00:46:44] so like your sophomore, junior year?

[00:46:45] Yeah. So like. It seems like a long time ago if you think about it like that, but if you think about like just being in high school, does it really seem that long ago?

[00:46:53] Joe: No. No, not really. You. It really weirded me out when I realized that the freshman that I'm going to have class with were nine years old when I joined the Marine Corps.

[00:47:04] Jordan: Holy shit. What? Yeah

[00:47:07] Joe: they're 18 I'm 27 boy. Damn.

[00:47:11] Joe: I joined. Yeah, I joined the Marine Corps in 2011 they were [00:47:14] nine so

[00:47:14] Erich: they weren't even born when, but when we were starting school. Yeah, probably. Basically,

[00:47:20] Nick B.: I'm like,

[00:47:24] Erich: it's like you want to Pat them on the head and like, Oh, look at you a little Billy.

[00:47:27] Joe: That makes me want to leave

[00:47:28] Erich: that too. That's like, let's just walk out of this. I'm so

[00:47:32] Maturity Difference Being An Older Student

[00:47:32] Jordan: Curious. Do you see a like a huge maturity difference? I mean, obviously there is one, but I'm saying like is it evident in that kind of setting. In an academic setting when you're in class, is it like, wow, [00:47:44] those kids are 18

[00:47:45] Joe: It depends on the person. So some people, and it's tough too, because I think that I've like become more matured the longer I've been there. Like I've, I think I've, I think I've matched the environment more now. I'm just older and so there's some mitigation against that.

[00:48:00] Erich: Plus

[00:48:01] Joe: I kind of try not to think about it or I don't think about it. So I'll just be bullshitting with somebody. And every so often they'll just do something that'll catch me off guard. So 99% of the time, I don't even notice it. But every so often they'll [00:48:14] do something really immature or like childish, and I'm just, I go, Oh my God. And I get reminded, right? Like for example, I was at the gym and a couple of dudes that I knew saw me there and they're like, Hey, what's up? And blah, blah, blah. And they were talking. And then one of them calls the other one out for having a pimple like near their mustache or something. Right. And I was just like, who? Who cares? Who cares? Yeah. Like really?Ha ha ha [00:48:44] look at you. I was like. What? What? How am I, how old are you? Oh, you're 19 Oh, right. Of course. Of course.

[00:48:51] As you'd explained it, I'm like, why would you point that out to somebody? [00:48:54] It just doesn't matter.

[00:48:56] Jordan:But even when I was 19 I wasn't like, Hey, your [00:48:59] Joe: face.

[00:49:01] Erich: Well, I mean, some people we know who would have done that, like, Hey, your face is ugly, but we were that age.

[00:49:08]Forming Your Identity

[00:49:08] Joe: It's moments like that that I'll notice it, but for the most part, I don't. What I did notice. In the [00:49:14] last relationship because she was 23. I was 26 at the time, so three year different rates. So three years difference. But what I noticed there was,

[00:49:21]I don't know if there's a lack of time for this or what it was, or maybe it's just who I am as a person, but I noticed that comparatively less formed as an individual, she was less sure of her own identity.

[00:49:35] I bet I, I've noticed the people that aren't really aware of where they're going exactly, or what they really stand for, who they are, [00:49:44] and they're kind of amorphous and all over the place. So trying to get to know someone in a deep level of who they are with that

makes it really hard because they don't really know what they are. Everything or nothing. Right. They're not some defined thing. So when I'm trying to pin down who this person is. Do we get along? Are you the type of person that I could see myself with for a long time? There's nothing there that I'm looking for. It's like I'm trying to, I don't even know how you, I'm trying to think of a good metaphor. [00:50:14] It's almost like I'm trying to pick up water. Yeah, I'm trying to hold out a cup, a whole something in my hand, but it's so liquid that it just falls out or I don't, I can't hold all the sands or sand.

[00:50:28] Erich: Yeah, like I've noticed that too, where it's like when you meet people who, it's almost like you just need a certain level of like life experience and it doesn't matter what it is. Like it doesn't have to be good, bad, or ugly. It just, they haven't spent enough time. With their own thoughts to think [00:50:44] about what they truly value and would have liked to represent in the world. And then when you try to find out something deeper about, you know, what do they stand for, kind of thing. They, they just never have been confronted with that question.

Like, they haven't gone to the, like, I guess, existential level of it where it's , what do I really want my life to be about? You know? And you're like, how, and how? And then the next question is like, once you decide what. , what your life is about or what you want it to be about. You say, okay, what are the steps that I have to put in place to [00:51:14] put myself on that path? And I just don't think most of the people who've done that deep work to figure it out in their own head and be like, Hey, where are the stepping stones here? Right.

[00:51:23] Jordan: To be...

[00:51:26]Nick B.: I might be like a tangent, so if you want to

[00:51:29] Jordan: Oh, okay.

[00:51:32] Joe: Well, fine then.

[00:51:33]Jordan: alright. Real quick. So I would just say, not to say you guys are saying this, but to be fair, I feel like that is such a hard thing to do. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not trying to imply that's what you guys mean. but I [00:51:44] just feel like. So personally, like when I, you know, when I stopped making music, I didn't consciously say, I'm done making music today. Right. It was just like, you know, some weeks turned into months went by and then I was like, Oh, I haven't done this in a little bit. Yeah.

[00:51:59] You know what I mean? And then it was like a, like a small, like a hindsight reflection, you know what I mean? Why to look back on it when I wasn't consciously doing it, and then I didn't consciously get into screenwriting. It was kinda like a lot of. Different things like you guys, you know what I mean? Saying [00:52:14] like, Hey, you should do this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then kind of just formed. Yup. And then kind of in a roundabout fashion, I figured out like, Oh, this is who I am and this is the lane I need to be in. So I don't know if that's, you could strike that at maturity.

[00:52:27] Erich: That's why I said it's just life experience. Like did you just need a certain level of time? And then reflecting being , Oh, what are the common themes and patterns in my life that seemed to be these thematic values that seemed to be. Underscoring everything that I do in my life, and it doesn't have to be like [00:52:44] aligning with a certain job or anything like that, but it's , what are the values that these things seem to bubble up like emergent properties of my life? And then once you can organize those things, then you can start to really see . Oh, this is what I'm all about. And then just be about it.

[00:53:01] Like be it,

[00:53:01] Jordan: [and then from there kind of construct.

[00:53:03] Erich: Yeah. And then from there it's like, okay, then I can , fill a role because society is gonna give you a role, but you're more complex and more dynamic than any role you'll ever choose to fill.

[00:53:11] Nick B.: I'm through a little, [00:53:14] I dunno, [00:53:15] Erich: curve ball.

[00:53:16] Nick B.: Cause it sounds like you dated me. no, but like I, I think there's,for me, I mean, I'm not 23, I'm only 25, but I don't know specifically there's, I wouldn't argue that there's truth to what you're getting at.

[00:53:29] Joe: Right.

[00:53:29] Not Solidifying Knowledge And Avoiding Stagnation

[00:53:29] Nick B.: But I find more value for myself and not solidifying in anything and holding versatility. And I think once you start to ground yourself in a certain place. You offer a little too much bias to the way that you process things that you [00:53:44] take in. And I actually hate that I ever talk about anything like I know what the hell I'm talking about because I have no clue about anything ever in their own same brains.

[00:53:53] But at the same time, going back to something you also said is that you can have all the information in the world, but if you don't have the power to enact it. What's the point? So there's a middle ground there, right? Of like, if I'm just the schlub that's like, Oh, I'll just take an information, but I'm not confident enough to actually enact it. What's the point?

[00:54:09] You have to find a middle ground, but at the same time, like I think hopefully it's not, you know, maybe I'll hit [00:54:14] 40 and be like, all right, I've gathered enough information and cultivated enough to feel cultured and educated enough to say, okay, I could make a decision in the world. Right. And that's not to say that, I don't know. I know that I love breakfast and I know that when I listen to pop music, I want a lot of bass guitar. And when I listened to hip hop, I love it. If there's some piano in there, I love going to snazzy bars and I love going to like sitting in a beanbag chair and drinking scotch and a really weird place, you know?

[00:54:38] But in terms of actually enacting opinions, I think it's really tough, right back to [00:54:44] that Johnny Depp thing. I can sit there and say, yeah, beating your wife is bad. But then when you get down to the specifics that you have limited knowledge on, it gets really tough. And again, I, I hate the, I hate that I talk about stuff like, I know about it. And like, I mean, that's kind of inherent and that's what I've been doing for a long time. But. I am so limited, but that's also the booty would be the beauty of the human experience. We could be omniscient, but having that human bias applied to everything, it's part of the like, you know, if you have no,

[00:55:11] Joe: makes an individual individual.

[00:55:13] Nick B.:Exactly. Yeah. [00:55:14] And so like, I don't know. I dunno. Like it sounds like too. I know you have very critical conversations. So, and that sense, having someone to offer feedback to you and I have like, you know, a grounded sense of being like, well, wait, Whoa.

[00:55:25] Well, I mean, yeah, I would, I would

[00:55:27] Erich: say this is like an, I'm sure Joe might echo some of it, but. Well, if you notice the way I'm speaking is, I'm not saying anything in particular. I'm circling around qualities and, and what is it like life all about? And it sounds flowery and it sounds a little like, what the fuck? Like if you [00:55:44] just hear it for the first time, it's like he's not really saying anything and it's kinda true because I can't prescribe someone and say, you should value this thing, because if you value that thing, then your life will be better. . Yeah. I can't do that when I, well, all I can say is if you, you just have to look inside yourself and you have to just like reflect and ask yourself , what do I stand for?

[00:56:04] Nick B.: You're starting the conversation for someone that's offering them. You're saying, Hey, this might be something that you want to think about yourself.

[00:56:09] Erich: Giving them, I mean, Jordan Peterson, like Joe would say, would talk about past authoring [00:56:14] or present authoring and is one of the ways and tools that we do this with. So, yeah, I'm gonna let Joe I can push back

[00:56:22] Joe: on both your desire not to quite say anything to somebody to like sway them one way or another, and I can highlight the idea you were just talking about. I think you were really touching on, and I think this is a solution to it.

[00:56:33] It's actually the same issue as the art vulnerability problem. That art is a very personal thing is to self‐expression, but you make yourself vulnerable and [00:56:44] putting that out there.

[00:56:45] I think knowledge is the same way that you try to understand things to the best of your absolute ability. And then once you know the facts and you form an opinion about it, and it is an opinion, but you say, okay, this is how it looks to me, and now that I see how this looks to me, I'm going to put that out there. Make myself vulnerable to criticism willingly, willingly, make myself vulnerable to criticism, not only so that I can actually learn by other people's critiques [00:57:14] because here's what it looks like to me.

[00:57:15] I know I'm missing information. Someone's got it out there. Someone's got a reason why I'm fucking wrong. All right? But I don't know where else to go to find that truth. So I'm going to throw it on the ether and whatever comes back my way, I'm willing to accept, and that made me look like an idiot. Like there might be a moment where I look stupid. But fine, fine.

[00:57:33] Assert yourself, put your opinion out there with confidence. Have a reason why you have that opinion. Make sure you can defend it is to the best of your ability. And then just see what happens.

[00:57:44]Nick B.: I was going to say, that makes a lot of sense. And another thing that you would also mentioned, the idea that everything has truth to it. Like I could be like,

[00:57:51] Joe: lollipop suck. That's not necessarily true. But the fact that

[00:57:55] Nick B.: I think they suck is true. And this is a truth about lollipops that Nick bugle thinks they suck. And so the same thing of like, you know, if you take a hundred people and you survey them

[00:58:04] Joe: on how

[00:58:05] Nick B.: many gumballs they think are in something. And then you add up all this stuff and you find the median, you're going to be closer to the truth than any one individual because that's just kind of how that works. So the more [00:58:14] versions of the truth you have, technically, I guess

[00:58:16] Joe: There's a good parable for this. [00:58:18] Erich: It should converge on a known quantity,

[00:58:20] The Blind Man And The Elephant

[00:58:20] Joe: there's a Buddhist parable about the blind men and the elephant. So there's like five blind men and everything, can't see anything, and one of them goes up and he feels something that, Oh my God, what is this? Is that a rope? I'm tugging on something here. It feels like a rope.

[00:58:36] And then another one goes up to like the leg of the elephant and he's like, Oh my God, it's a tree. What do you mean it's a rope? You idiot, it's a tree.

[00:58:42] And then another one goes up to a year. It's

[00:58:44] like, no, it's a, it's clearly a Palm. You, you're all nutcases and they're all yelling at each other and I'll feel in different things and I don't think it's something different.

[00:58:50] And then one sighted man comes by and goes, you guys are all touching different parts of the elephant. It's an elephant. They all feel like idiots.

[00:58:57] Now that parable is supposed to be something like a commentary on the religions of the world, but it doesn't have to be. It can also be used as a parable to define how we come across the idea of truth.

[00:59:07] What truth is, is an approximate truth that we come to by communicating with each other. It's [00:59:14] why, the idea of freedom of speech is so important. It's because how we discover truth is by talking to each other. So if you don't let people to assert their opinion.

Honestly, in risk, that vulnerability and risk that that, that criticism that they were talking about and being vulnerable, then you actually make it harder for a society to figure out what the truth is.

[00:59:35] What is Communication?

[00:59:35] Erich: Ooh, so there, can I just throw in one thing before you go? So there's a really cool quote on, on like language and conversation. [00:59:44] So by creating language as a species. Language is when we have this conversation we're having right now is humans imagining together. That's what language and conversation provides, and I know it sounds really trippy. Yeah. Was like, we're synchronizing, like literally, it's like as a, as if

[01:00:01] Joe: Getting on the same wavelength.

[01:00:03] Erich: Yeah. It's, it's the best way we can communicate our ideas because, you know, we don't know where a thought come from. Like realistically, we don't know how people have thoughts and all the things, but what we [01:00:14] can do is we can try to write down our thoughts or we can try to say our thoughts to allow us to communicate more effectively. To say, to get my thought into your brain or to your brain or to your brain, or to anyone listening brain. What this , is all of us brainstorming together. And when we start saying this over and over again, like there's a lot of this common themes that seem to be bubbling up in all of these conversations that we're having with Feeding Curiosity. And over time there's like an emergent truth that seems to be happening.

[01:00:41] Language Processing James Pennebaker

[01:00:41] Joe: [01:00:41] I don't think that there's, okay, so. [01:00:44] One, I can back up your point with a study. So there's a study that Pennebaker did, Jay, James, Pennebaker, UT Austin, where they took the, the analyze the, the text messages over the course of like a few weeks or a couple of months or something of freshmen couples who were notoriously not going to last. So couples, he had it right there, right there, like 18 years old nail in the coffin. And then we see out and then they analyze all their text messages to each other. You're cynical, Joe. Put it through a word program that I'll actually be [01:01:14] using in my, my research. Yeah. Same reward program. Analyze what words were there and then found that the thing that predicted whether or not they were going to stay together was they started mimicking each other's language. They were getting on the same wave,

[01:01:30] Erich: but like synchronizing.

[01:01:31] Joe: Right? Right. They were synchronizing and that's how you know they were going to last. If they didn't do that six months, they're done and they could predict it pretty accurately.

[01:01:39] Jordan: You should send me that study. That's interesting.

[01:01:40] Joe: That's really fascinating. Yeah, it's so cool. [01:01:44] It's a whole paradigm now, like you, if you want to do, if you want

[01:01:47] Erich: to study relationships, I call it, I forget what,

[01:01:49] Joe: he's a social psychologist.

[01:01:51] Erich: I, okay. That's what I'm sure,

[01:01:53] Joe: but that's one thing, so we can measure, or at least. Indicate that that getting on the same page thing, does that synchronizing across the culture between other people happens, at least in relationships. Right. But it's a proof of concept for on a broader scale.

[01:02:08] Erich: Yeah. Because if you're spending all of your time with that person in physical contact, it's like you start to become

[01:02:14] chameleons for each others. Patterning basically, and it's like the subconscious patterning. When you have those couples that are like really, really close and they start to talk like each other. It's exactly that.

[01:02:23] Jordan: t was funny. So at Thanksgiving, at Nate's house, somebody notices something crazy. I forgot exactly what it was, but like Alex was standing behind me and I was like, so like we weren't looking at each other, but looking like. This way. Yeah. And, the person goes, you guys literally made the exact same expression, like it's pretty cool.

[01:02:41] Erich: Yeah. It's synchronization.

[01:02:43] Joe: They say the [01:02:44] two that, that couples, yeah. [01:02:49] (Alex in Background)

[01:02:49] Jordan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it happened twice in like the same within a week. You know what I mean? Like

[01:02:54] Joe: they say to the couples that are with each other for a long period of time. Married couples. Began to look like each other because your face is start to mimic each other's expressions and then the same wrinkles cause you keep making the same points. Right,

[01:03:07] Erich: right. That's crazy.

[01:03:09] Joe: You're mimicking each other's expressions. So the result, the,

[01:03:14] the wrinkles that would be a result of those expressions get mimicked later on between both of them.

[01:03:19] Nick B.: So that sucks for like, you know, you're married someone hot and they're going to get ugly here, but you're going to get.

[01:03:28] (Laughter)

[01:03:28] Joe: It's all downhill for me. For her. I'm going to just keep looking better and better, but I'm so horrendous now.

[01:03:36] Erich: She's messed up, dude.

[01:03:38] Jordan: Oh no. Oh, she screwed. Sorry. She didn't have facial hair by the end.

[01:03:46] Back to Truth and Vulnerability

[01:03:46] Nick B.: So to build off of your thing that you were saying earlier, the idea of putting yourself out there as a means of expression. to add to the whole truth, you mentioned the vulnerability and putting yourself out there. So I think an issue that we're seeing with free speech and people thinking that free speech is being attacked outside of, you know, there are

[01:04:03] HR departments and you can legally have issues with free speech, but at the same time, I think people really undervalue or under misunderstand. Consumer votes and how much companies need to [01:04:14] abide by that. Like if a company has an issue and it gets outside of the company and the consumers understand, Hey, this is, this doesn't align with my virtues.

[01:04:21] That's the entire world of marketing right now saying we need to align with our customer's virtues. So some small thing happens internally.

[01:04:27] An issue with virtues is going to impact sales and every consumer vote matters.

[01:04:32] And so basically that's where freedom of speech might be inhibited. And people lose their jobs over saying stupid shit. And all this kind of stuff happens. And everyone's like, Oh, the government's trying to take away free speech.

[01:04:41] That's not happening. I'm not gonna lie. Like when people show [01:04:44] up to college campuses and there's so many protesters that they don't speak anymore, they have, I don't know. I mean there's, there's certain scenarios where there are violent threats and things that's actually, they need to not. Oh, well, some of the times they could just go and speak and they'd be speaking to an empty auditorium, but they'd still be able to speak like they'd still be able to do their job.

[01:05:01] Right to Speech Vs. Right to a Platform

[01:05:01] Joe: It's a right to speech versus right to a platform. [01:05:04] Nick B.:Exactly.

[01:05:06] Erich: That's the blurry line right now, because a lot of the platforms and quotes that we have, at least in the digital space, blur the line [01:05:14] between providing a product and providing a platform, like just think of the Apple store right. There at once a product. And they also, cause they, so they, so they have basically a conflict of interest because they sell other people's things on there, but they also sell their own thing. So there's an implicit bias usually there. And it's not to say that it isn't. Or is, but it probably is that they're gonna emphasize their own stuff before they emphasize somebody [01:05:44] else's thing on that platform. Right.

[01:05:46] So that's where like all of this stuff kind of gets squarely where it's like, even even

Facebook is kind of like the empire evil empire right now, where it's like they're trying to take over the internet and create a walled garden platform. You know, Zuckerberg wants to create a cryptocurrency it's all this crazy shit like. Where it's blurring the line and creating these walled gardens within digital space that then transcend into the physical realm because of how delineated it all is. Because then people [01:06:14] like, because people will recognize that in the world. But I think the one thing we do have going for us is the ability that we do have nowadays that's facilitated by the internet and by people who care. Like me and Joe got to see Jordan Peterson give a live lecture that doesn't happen that much anymore. The fact that like that guy filled up at attire, I think it was the Congress, I forget, I forget what venue it was

[01:06:36] Joe: in the Chicago.

[01:06:37] Erich: It might've been the Chicago theater probably honestly, but it was full. Like it was massive. Like it was like the entire thing. And here's a guy who's [01:06:44] a, you know, Canadian professor who maybe lectures to 60 to a hundred students. Regularly, maybe. Yeah. And instead he's talking to thousands of people, you know, sold out shows.

[01:06:57] Nick B.: And again, so the things he said in his career clearly didn't inhibit his consumer votes enough to that he still has that kind of stuff. So he still has his platform. He hasn't been dethroned. The issue is though, I think people think nowadays the difference of not having freedom of speech versus,

[01:07:12] speaking with [01:07:14] impunity. There's a total difference there. Right. And so that's, again, everyone is intense. The second they open their mouth, there might be that minimal artist's version of expression, but a lot of people think they can just say absolutely whatever they want without that vulnerability. And that's just

[01:07:27] Joe: not the tax consequence.

[01:07:28] Nick B.: So it's like, Oh, I said something incredibly homophobic or incredibly racist. Why did I lose my job? Well,

[01:07:34] Erich: yeah,

[01:07:34] Nick B.: because that doesn't align with your company's virtues. That might've cost them consumer votes or legal issues. So you, there was no impunity. You still got to say that and you're not being sued or anything.

[01:07:44] [01:07:44] Joe: But there were consequences being thrown in jail.

[01:07:46] Jordan:Yeah. But we have to sever ties. You know what I mean? People think freedom of speech is also means that people have to listen to them the fuck up. And it's hard. Yeah. Freedom to listen. Yes. Like no. Like just cause you are free to say whatever you want. It doesn't mean I'm required to listen to them. Like I can tell you to fuck off. You know what I mean?

[01:08:04] Erich: Like go ahead.

[01:08:05] Jordan: Well, no, it was just, I mean that's basically,

[01:08:08] Taking Responsibility For What You Can Control

[01:08:08] Erich: well, I mean I think it comes down to is this sense of responsibility that. It should be an a part of them. They've been individual like we, we've created all these things and all these platforms and we don't, we haven't thought about the consequences deeply enough to impart a sense of responsibility for those who do it right. Like I, I was talking to Joe about this yesterday, is the sense of responsibility that seems to be. Paramount to who I am.

[01:08:35] I can't sit here and talk about all these meaningful things and be like, you're going to do the deep work and without like, I wouldn't talk about it unless [01:08:44] I've done it myself. And how much you value. I value it and that's where it comes from. And it's like this entire idea of there's a first wave of responsibility that I can't honestly sit here and sit at a microphone and talk unless I'm doing what the fuck I say I'm doing.

[01:09:01] And that's the difference that a lot of people will say is they just, they get fired up and emotional about something and they feel like they care about it or they feel like they'd stand up about it, but they haven't actually stood up about that [01:09:14] thing yet, or they haven't thought about the consequences of being like, do I really think I shouldn't be saying this.

Because there's a lot of times where if you self, filter yourself and say, Oh, I'm just being hot headed right now, and I shouldn't really talk about the guy who just cut me off and I want to, you know, I hope he dies in a fire or whatever. Like, like that's the easy answer obviously, but there's a lot of like stupid options here. But like that's just me being stupid with it.

[01:09:38] But if we stopped and looked at it with our own personal [01:09:44] responsibility, instead of looking at other people and say, why aren't you more responsible. When in reality, the best we can do is be accountable to ourselves. And then by virtue, if you hold yourself responsible, those around you see how responsible you are and change behavior accordingly.

Does that mean, obviously that's not going to work all the time, but

[01:10:05] Jordan: the synchronization really. Yeah. It's like synchronizing with truth that they can see you're full of shit. Right at the core. Yeah. But [01:10:14] like if you, if you, so we all have experienced this in some way or another, but someone who's like, you just know they're full of shit all the time. Like everything is saying, shut up. sales man like you, you know,and it's aggravating. Cause then they'll say something that maybe they are telling the truth and maybe they're, they hit the note where they are being super authentic. But since they have this track record of you're like. Nah, I don't agree with it. You know what I mean? But if someone else were to say the same exact thing, like, Oh yeah, I got you. I feel [01:10:44] you bro.

[01:10:46] Erich: It's like flaky people. Like you know those people you try to make plans with and it's like they'd like, yeah, man, I'm down. I'm down. I'll hang out with you this Friday for sure. I

[01:10:54] Jordan: canceled

[01:10:55] Erich: and you texted him the day before and we [01:10:56] Joe: still get a fever. We still good,

[01:10:58] Erich: we still good. And then all of a sudden it's like. Did content they have and it's like, yo, you're going to be there. Oh, sorry, my gerble, it's like sick

[01:11:07] Jordan: and I just can't make it. So I give people the benefit benefit of the doubt [01:11:14] because I try like, stuff does happen. Or even even if nothing happens, I try to think about it. I'm like, okay, what if I don't understand? Maybe this person has like some anxieties or issues or something that I don't know about that they haven't shared. And so they don't, they aren't. They can't because it's a hard thing for them. So they can't relay and be super truthful and say, look man, I'm really having a hard time. I know I have to cancel. So sometimes I try to be like, all right, maybe I don't know what's going on. Maybe something else happened that I don't understand. So I try to [01:11:44] be a little. More understanding what things like that, but when it's every single time, right, man, like

[01:11:51] Joe: you, what is the pattern? Yeah. Sergeant you, who's to say three's a trend and then he's like, he's going right up until three. He's like, so you screw up. He's like, you flake twice. You're fine. Like two times. Totally. Like I get it. That happens third time.

[01:12:08] Jordan: Yeah. Then it's like, you can hit me up. Yeah, [01:12:11] Erich: absolutely. I agree with that.

[01:12:13] Joe: Yeah, [01:12:14] that's true.

[01:12:15] Nick B.: Back. I dunno. My main thing is like, no one knows anyone, anything ever. So like the, they don't owe you their attendance. They don't even know you. The truth, when you also don't owe them continued invites or continued friendship, that continues to happen. So you know, you can just, it's not worth getting worked up over. But if they get worked up over like, well, why didn't you invite me this time? Or why are we not hanging out as much? And stuff like, I, you didn't owe me anything and I don't know what would do anything.

[01:12:40] Joe: So in that situation, the thing you do is tell them exact, you tell them straight. [01:12:44] Yo go, listen, I'm not inviting you to anything anymore, because every time I invite you, you don't show up. Yeah. And that's it. And it's like, and that's how personal I like being around you. I would love

[01:12:53] Erich: for this statement of fact,

[01:12:54] Joe: but I'm not going to waste my energy.

[01:12:56] Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. And that's fair. I think that's 100% fair. Yeah. You can't get mad at them. No,

[01:13:01] Joe: I mean, I, I think people will see

[01:13:05]A Sense of Gratitude When People Hold True To Commitments

[01:13:05] Erich: As all of you probably can attest to, I am like the undying optimist in just about everything. And so I go the other end of spectrum of like, when people choose to hang out with [01:13:14] you, right? It's like a sense of gratitude because that person could be choosing to do literally anything else but spend time with you. But they have made that actual decision. Did you spend time with you? And so if you treat that as the, as that limited commodity that it is, because we could choosing to do anything else with our time, like all of you are doing right now, the.

[01:13:37] That you should be able to channel into gratitude and be able to take it for what it is. Because a lot of times people say like, Oh yeah, we're doing [01:13:44] something. But then people were on their phones or people were doing like distracted or whatever. So then you can take that sense of gratitude and be like, okay, I'm going to make sure I'm in this moment. You know, like you said before, be where you feed. Are you go, I told you the same thing. Do that.

But when you're with those people or make plans with that person, the best you can do is follow through and then actually be there when you're there. Because then it shows how much that relationship or that time matters to that person. Or at least for yourself. Cause there's no [01:14:14] point in doing something if you're actually not going to be in it.

[01:14:16]Jean Paul Sartre Discussion

[01:14:16] Joe: There's a French philosopher named Jean Paul Sartre who talked about this sort of similar idea where he thought that there was, there had been before him a long tradition at this idea that we had an essence. We had some thing that determined who we are as human nature that existed, and he denied that. He didn't like that at all.

[01:14:38] He said that existence proceeds essence and the idea there was at first you [01:14:44] exist and then you define yourself. Then you start to define who you are and what your nature as a human being is.

[01:14:52] But the way that you do that is that you act and you are. There are an infinite number of actions you could take in the world. I could do literally anything. I could just stand up right now. I could dump my beer out all over this entire thing. I get slapped Wenzel. Hey, I go AHHHH. I could run out like that's, I could absolutely do that. Nothing would stop me.

[01:15:11] Erich: Shock value extreme

[01:15:14] [01:15:14] Joe: All of those are an option. I could do anything right now. Right? Infinite. I get to start hitting buttons. Doesn't matter because of that. What. We actually choose has to be chosen at the detriment of another possible choice. I choose to sit here as a civilized human being and not do that insane shit because as Sartre would say, I value sitting here and having this conversation more [01:15:44] than I value that other option or

[01:15:46] Nick B.: opportunity costs.

[01:15:48] Joe: Yes, yes. And every and every action you take indicates what you value. So you were defined then by the things you value and the actions you take after having come into existence.

[01:16:00] You defined yourself, but you haven't, we are condemned to be free is what he said. Because of this infinite amount of action we can take, we are condemned to be free. And the choices you make matters so much. They define you period.

[01:16:14] And like Wenzel was just talking about, or just like we were talking about with flaking. Like the reality is. You could have some crazy disease and be like, I can't, I can't make it. Now. That might be reasonable for you to say, I'm going to sit here and care more about my personal health than I do to show up to this party or whatever. Totally reasonable.

[01:16:37] Or you could, you could value, honestly, this would be ridiculous, but you should value going to that party even more than your own [01:16:44] personal health. But that's a choice that you make and that that indicates who you are. And I think he was, I think he nailed it except for one thing.

[01:16:52] He really screwed up because as far as I can tell, we aren't born as a blank slate. That's what he's assumes that we exist. That's where he screws up. He drops the ball there. He assumes that we're a blank slate when we, when we come into when we were born and he didn't, it's like evolution doesn't exist for him.

[01:17:11] That the reality is, is that there's a handful of [01:17:14] actual. There's a handful of choices that were made throughout our entire evolutionary history that benefited our survival. And then over time got substantiated in biology. So he parts of our brain that literally have values already prepackage given to us. So there is a human essence that comes before our own existence as a result of this continuum, this constant choice of these concentrations that are made. That eventually become biology that eventually influenced the way we react. It's like food, right? I'm hungry. [01:17:44] Me deciding that I'm going to eat. Is actually the result of valuing food, which turns out to be a great way to survive.

[01:17:52] Erich: That's quite necessary. In fact.

[01:17:55] Joe: Like evolution itself, I think it does assert a value, a super-ordinate like the top value, which is survival and reproduction.

[01:18:03] Nick B.: Is there anything that gets into just lack of knowledge, like the idea that . Every choice we make. I'm choosing to be here right now with everyone. but hypothetically, [01:18:14] if there were. Some town in the world where everyone wears mustard and it has red dyed hair and drinks, craft beer nonstop, and they're all writing their own foams and skateboarding. Exactly. That place existed, which I don't know, it exists. I mean, maybe Colorado or something. I don't know.

[01:18:29] But, if that place existed and I didn't know, but I knew it'd be there, like the whole, all those, like. I dunno those essentially the idea of thoughtful and deep post you'll see of like, Oh, I'm homesick for a place. I don't know exists. [01:18:44] Like that kind of stuff. Like there's some shoes.

[01:18:47] Exactly. Yeah. Mercury's out of retrograde. But like, so in reality, there. I don't know that that place exists. And so I don't, I can't go there and maybe, you know, maybe there's a portal in the closet that I don't know about that might get me there. And it's just this like psychology, get into that.

[01:19:05] Joe: Sartre would say that. you aren't saying that you wouldn't value that thing over what you're doing because you don't know about it. You don't have the option to make that [01:19:14] choice. Right. Your, your ignorance actually limits the amount of choices you could make. So he'd be like, yeah, I mean, if you knew for sure that that thing existed, you could do go do it, or you just had an inkling of that thing, then, then you're making a choice. But if you're totally like, it's an unknown unknown, you don't know that. You don't know it, then yeah. It's like you're, you're almost. You're free. You're

[01:19:34] Nick B.: anything else? So just in my head answer my own questions too of like, it's one thing if it's like. This piece of art doesn't exist. I'm going to make it exist. Because like I said, like I don't know if that place exists, but I can try and [01:19:44] forge that community. But there's an issue there too, of like people who tried to forge communities and just, you know, put their own virtues onto the world. And like maybe Hitler for instance, was like, Oh, there's a world that has Jews in it and I don't want a world the Jews, so I'm going to enact one that doesn't. There's an issue with that of like your putting your stuff on to other people and there's, I don't know.

[01:20:03] Joe: So here's a weird thing with Sartre is that he would say that there are no inherent values. So he's an atheist, he's an atheist, says existentialist and it's worth like pointing that out because they were atheist and non [01:20:14] atheist existentialist and they kind of divides in this, in this part.

[01:20:17] So he would say there are no actual values. That exists other than the personal ones that you decided for yourself as a result of making actions. Right. So he would actually say that there's nothing, I don't think he, I don't think he can say that there's anything inherently wrong with things like Hitler, rather, that it's wrong because we all decide that it's wrong, right? That we all value not killing a bunch of Jewish people over Hitler doing what he wants to do. [01:20:44] But Hitler is an inherently wrong in some sense, or he isn't. Yeah, there isn't. It's not objectively wrong when he's doing. Yeah.

[01:20:52] Where Do Morals Come From?

[01:20:52] Nick B.: Which is exactly where I wanted to get into and what you answered with our previous podcasts like 20 ago with the idea of where does morals come from?

[01:21:01] Did he celebrate? And they celebrate things that along there like procreation and survival.

[01:21:06] Joe: That's problematic. But here's, okay, so here's the really interesting thing. I got in this with Ben a little bit a while [01:21:14] back, but. Here's the interesting thing. So I'm a pragmatist. So I think that what's going on is that over a long period of time in our evolutionary history, we found that certain behaviors benefited survival. Those behaviors, some of them are actually moral behaviors that we have moral beliefs that got perpetuated over a very long period of time. They ensured our survival. We value those things actually, because they value.

Are they in benefit or survival? Okay, so you could just say that that is a social

[01:21:44] thing. That we believe that the golden rule was good, though it has been perpetuated over a long period of time and for survival reasons, that that rule itself wouldn't exist if we weren't in a social environment. Okay.

[01:22:01] So if there was no interaction between other people, then does the rule is the good Samaritan thing? True. Or is it only true within the context of a social dynamic that exists [01:22:14] for humanity? Now, that's one argument.

[01:22:17] Another argument would be that we evolved to match our environments. So a fish gets gills because gills help it breathe underwater. It's a beneficial vert survival, but that also tells us something about the environment that it's in. There's water, it's swimming in water. It wouldn't have gills if it was out of water.

[01:22:40] Erich: Right? It's a given. It's a constant.

[01:22:42] Joe:It doesn't. So it could be [01:22:44] that we developed moral principles. We adapted and created these things, not just because we're in social environment, but because the environment contains personality, that there's, in fact, objective, moral laws that exist and environment beneath our own perception. Yeah. Interesting. Fascinating. I have no idea how to get past any of that yeah, but what

[01:23:10] Erich: I haven't thought about it enough to actually weigh in.

[01:23:13] Nick B.: I could already think of [01:23:14] ways to refute this, but to maybe go further with this, like, are there fish born without gills that just immediately are born to die?

[01:23:21] They don't. I would like for the instance of like what if you're born with full‐blown personality disorder or a sociopath, you know. Does that say something about the environment or those just,

[01:23:30] Joe: it might just, yeah, it would be seeing the same thing about the environment from a different direction. It'd be, it'd be like the negative version.

[01:23:39] Erich: Very rare diseases that people have that they can't function.

[01:23:42] Jordan: That's like an abnormality right? Does that take that [01:23:44] into account?

[01:23:44] Joe: Yeah, because if you can't breathe under water and then you die. Your death is an indication of the fact that you should have been able to breathe underwater, . If there's something about the fact that you weren't able to perpetuate, that also tells us about what doesn't work in the environment. So if you don't act morally, that might tell us that there is, again, still this moral structure that exists, that when you're acting antithetical to it, you just die. Like you get jailed or, I mean this happens with truths in general.

[01:24:09] Social Interaction and Positive Psychology

[01:24:09] Erich: Well they talk about like that as social aspect for humanity they, there seems to [01:24:14] be a needed social contact that just talking to someone via digital platforms just doesn't fucking work. You need to still have physical social interaction. To function properly. And you know, we can't explain it with modern science really well yet because it's, it's still kind of squishy in the sense like, we don't know how to measure what you know, fulfillment is, or wellbeing really is.

[01:24:37] And there's some science with like Martin Seligman and positive psychology that they're trying to figure this stuff out, but there's a huge component in like [01:24:44] positive fulfilling relationships. And that's why I'm really talking about it right now cause I'm reading the book. but it's, it's a fascinating worldview because of the earth, not a world, but like area of research because a lot of psychology has gone in the negative psychology or abnormal psychology.

[01:24:59] But to, to actually look at the positive aspect of psychology is this is like, it's almost counterintuitive because we talk about the negativity bias of humanity. And so it's more, it's more impactful for us to look at the, you know, where's the danger coming from next? And then we're like, what makes us feel [01:25:14] good? Actually. Outside of, you know, addiction and drugs.

[01:25:18] Pragmatic Responding to Ideas in Philosophy

[01:25:18] Joe: Well, so can you kind of, you can use the same pragmatic thing. I use this all the time in my political philosophy class against people not against people can see or the people who I'm responding to

[01:25:31]In Marxism, I use this, this pragmatic argument, which was if your belief system, when employed in the world produces. Death and destruction, [01:25:44] which one is something that didn't even account for, then that indicates something wrong with your philosophy, because it was a perfect philosophy. You wouldn't have that problem theoretically. Right, so

[01:25:57] Nick B.: You're able to win people over and you wouldn't have to kill them.

[01:25:59] Joe: Right. This is, I can do this with the religious people too. This is super easy. Is the Bible the perfect document to be like, maybe if fundamentals fundamentals will be like, yes, I'd be like, okay, then why does it, why is it the case that not.

[01:26:10] That everyone who reads it doesn't be immediately become a Christian. [01:26:14] Because when you act that thing out in the world, when you present that thing to the world, now your own definition of perfection isn't actually being realized. So that's, does that suggest the fact that it isn't actually perfect?

[01:26:25] Creativity and Creation

[01:26:25] Nick B.: I also just, I don't know, just a different way to think about things and how human value acts. you know, creativity broken down to its very basic means. Is that something didn't exist in the world and because of you, it now does, that's you created something. And that's true for [01:26:44] science, math, everything in the world. Art. so I just realized back to the whole thing of like searching in the world and not knowing how to get, or if the thing you want exists.

[01:26:54] That's part of the creativity of the human existence is, okay, I value this. It doesn't exist. I'm going to make it happen. And that's really,interesting to me, yeah.

[01:27:04] Joe: Creativity is something like a hypothetical value. It's like I would value this thing is coming into existence more than it not being, or whatever it is. That is an [01:27:14] obstacle in my way of making that thing exist. So I value that creative process so much more than that, that I'm going to create this thing. Yeah. Yup. That's cool.

[01:27:22] Wrapping Up

[01:27:22] Erich: And I think with that. You might want to wrap this bad boy up because it's almost time to start the festivities and continue drinking more. alchoolic beverages. My mom about to be home

[01:27:34] There will be tequila. [01:27:36] Why is all the rum gone?

[01:27:41] Jordan: I do want to just point out, yeah, go [01:27:44] ahead. We never went around and talked. I know. We totally, it was like we started with Jordan and then it just completely delay. We landed

[01:27:50] Joe: on that.

[01:27:51] Nick B.: Yeah, it's just a little [01:27:52] Erich: kind of fill in the gap.

[01:27:55]Nick's Iceland Trip Podcast Coming Soon

[01:27:55] Nick B.: My most recent thing is I had an amazing friend invite me to Iceland and I was petrified of going the entire time, and then once I got there, I learned a lot about myself and it was an amazing trip

[01:28:04] Erich: and super thankful. [01:28:06] Joe: Yeah. It looks amazing. yeah, [01:28:08] Jordan: I do want to go really

[01:28:09] Erich: well. Well, we'll have to do a solo podcast where you just talk about Iceland the whole time.

[01:28:12] Joe: I'll never forget [01:28:14] the Capitol city Iceland being Reykjavik because, Craig Ferguson, when he's on late night, used to ask people questions, like trivial questions for one of the last things that you do and you open every question with, with, if Reykjavik is the capital city of Iceland, then. What color is the color blue, like just stupid shit.

[01:28:35] That's every question would open with that. Then he just totally change the question

[01:28:38] Erich: you pronounce the name of the capital city because I've always wondered how the hell you pronounce that word.

[01:28:44] Joe: Anyway, [01:28:45] Erich: random tangent.

[01:28:46] Joe: That's totally on my list.

[01:28:47] Erich: Yeah, it looks awesome. It's insanely beautiful.

[01:28:50] Nick B.: I'm definitely going back in the next five years. In the summer though, it'll be more expensive for the flight, but outside of that, everything else should be

[01:28:57] Erich: cool.

[01:28:59]Joes's Update

[01:28:59] Joe: I am. Let's see, thesis work, lots of that. That's a big time consumer. things are going okay. I got a couple of corrections to make this stupid thing. It's, I can't talk too much about it, but there's a whole lot of research going on for me.

[01:29:11] Japanese is murder, doing political [01:29:14] philosophy. Love it. It's awesome. It's one of my favorite classes. And what else? Oh, Benefit dinner coming up. So I'm still doing, yes. I'm still holding two positions for the SVA. one is the community involvement chair. One is the, secretary running for president come next. Me. So the 11th job. So that's it.

[01:29:35] Erich: All sorts of things going on. Cool beans. All right guys. Well that's Friendsgiving now it's onto the rest of the, the festivities.

[01:29:44] Jordan: Yes, it is. [01:29:45] Erich: Boom.