Andy Vasily: Darkness, Movement and Self Discovery
“I had to really reflect deeply on my own life after I lost my second brother. It was the hardest thing to kind of look at. What was it within myself that allowed me to move forward in ways that my brothers couldn’t?”
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Andy Vasily is an educator who wants to push his understanding of teaching and learning to a deeper level. Andy decided to begin blogging to share his teaching practice and connect with other educators and top researchers around the world. The value that he saw in this exchange of vision and practical applications led to an enriched professional learning journey that he has shared with practitioners and scholars alike.
This conversation is a continuation of our first conversation you can listen to here. The first conversation covered Andy’s experiences related to travel, recovery, and connection. In this conversation, we expand on Andy’s inner exploration, starting with darkness in his life and experiences. Andy shares what works for him to keep the darkness from overwhelming him. We expand on the ideas of self-discovery and reflecting on your journey to help guide others on there own.
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Show notes:
[00:04:54] Experiencing Darkness
“And, kind of mask what we have to deal with, to move forward. And for me it was, it was, growing up in a, in a family, where there was mental illness, there was, there was an addiction, there was depression. Just try to stay away from it and go to far corners of the house just to be away from it. There were five of us in the family. I was the youngest in the family, and for me, it was easy to escape as the youngest person, and just kind of find my own little area of the house to be in and then do my own thing.
But you know, it's like depression and addiction as you know, when you experience it, and you move forward, there are lots of different things that you can learn from it. And I think it took me a long time to learn the things I needed to learn to move forward and in very proactive ways in my life.”
[00:09:26] Why focus on mental health?
[00:11:17] New Year's Resolutions
[00:12:32] Moral Weigh Stations
Esalen Institute | Michael Murphy | Finding Mastery
“Michael Murphy talked about, having these, these moral waste stations. So you're driving your car down the freeway, you know, or your, the trucks are going down the freeway and then they have to pull off into a weigh station.
They get weighed, and they move on. And that's how I'm looking at this.
I'm going to pull over. I'm going to go into this waste station just to kind of evaluate what I'm carrying with me, what I need to tweak, what I need to modify, what I need to let go. But it's more obviously the truck. If it's going to pull off the road and go to the waste station, it has a destination.
So on my own pursuit and my own destination of where I'm going, this is just a checkpoint. You know, along the way. So I'm not going to set this big resolution if I want to eat better. I'm not going to put this huge pressure on myself to eat vegan just because it's good for me.
I'm just going to choose to eat better. Yeah. And then check-in along the way. And it's okay if you mess up, it's okay if you screw up, you don't judge yourself. You'll learn from it, but you try not to repeat the same mistakes.
So I think when, you know, if we kind of go back to the darkness thing, if our goal is mental wellness, then we just have to continually check-in and allow ourselves, I guess time to make mistakes. We know we're going to make mistakes and, and just learn and move forward.”
[00:14:43] Two-week experiments
[00:17:05] What is performance?
[00:18:13] Creating a vision for movement
[00:20:14] The Power of Physical Activity
“I realized that after my brother Chris died, in 2014, the one that committed suicide, and I realize, Oh my God, I've been blessed with a moving body, and I've been blessed with finding the power and movement and John Ratey, going back to Dr. John Ratey, now it's brain science.
I mean the impact of physical activity. The neurochemistry of our brain is extraordinary, and they're figuring out more and more day by day. You know, like it's, they're finding out so much more about the impact of physical activity on the brain. Being active in exercising speaks volumes for what people need to do in their darkest moments.
My brother, who committed suicide, his happiest times were when he was working out regularly, and he had done it for about five years, five or six years, and then he stopped doing it. And you know, it's just like this thing that you just gotta have in your darkest moments when it's so hard to get out of bed.
And it's the middle of winter, and it's dark outside. All you have to do is to put your body into an erect position and put your feet on the floor, and then that's the first step to move towards the door. You know, and I, firmly believe this, and I share this. Every talk that I give, every presentation that I give, I share this with educators around the world.”
[00:24:27] Physical Activity and Mindfulness
[00:27:03] Answering questions while running
[00:31:26] Positive Psychology
[00:33:10] Innate or learned behavior?
[00:37:00] Giving away what you know
[00:41:56] Self-learning
[00:43:17] Having the right tools
“It's building the tools. Right. And that's what I'm trying to do, and that's what my wife's trying to do. To develop tools and to build our knowledge of the tools. To apply the tools in our own lives and to model what that's like and then to have conversations with our boys and with our students about those things.”
[00:45:01] Andy's Routines
[00:47:28] Giving yourself permission to explore
[00:50:42] Power of social interaction
“Which is huge when it comes to physical activity is having that social interaction piece. Either it be one friend or a group of friends or even if you're running alone. But that another friend is running 15 minutes after you or whatever, you're still kind of pushing each other too, you know, be active and do these things.”
Mike Taccona: Set Intentions and Self-Experimentation
Mike and Mary Taccona: Nursing, Travel in the US and Costa Rica
[00:52:47] Recommended Books
Tuesdays with Morrie by Mitch Albom
[00:54:18] Advice to someone entering the "real" world?
Other episodes you might enjoy:
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Full Transcript - Andy Vasily: Darkness, Movement and Self Discovery
[00:03:38] Erich Wenzel: Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of feeding curiosity, and we're actually joined with part two with Andy Vasily. Hey, Andy.
[00:03:45]Andy Vasily: Hey, how are you? How are you doing, man? It's funny that a few weeks ago we were recording in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I was there and now I'm in Japan from one climate to a completely different climate, and it is now about an hour, just to hour and a half before the new year's here.
[00:04:07] Erich Wenzel: Well, hopefully we can, we can get you out of here before new year's.
[00:04:10]Andy Vasily: I'll just be walking the streets and enjoying the sites, so.
[00:04:13] Erich Wenzel: Okay. Well that's cool. Either way you're, you're bringing me around the world with you.
[00:04:18] Andy Vasily: Yeah, exactly. I love it.
[00:04:19] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. So to kind of recap what happened last time, we. We're cut short because you had to go make dinner for your family, which is totally fine.
[00:04:28] And it was kind of going in line with the theme of our conversation in part one anyways with talking about deep, meaningful connections and making time for those that matter most to you. And in this one, I kind of wanted to get into a little bit more of your personal story. And a lot of that comes down to is dealing with your own personal darkness, or as a lot of people would say, and I don't know if you want to just take it from there, if there's any other pre-phase you want to do.
[00:04:54] Experiencing Darkness
[00:04:54] Andy Vasily: yeah. And so I guess I, I would, You know? And when we look at darkness, I mean, we all experience darkness in different ways and, and some of us are better with actually coming to grips with the darkness that we experience. some people push it out and lock it out and don't let it in. And I think when you lock it out and you don't let it in, that's when other things that aren't so good for us creep in.
[00:05:22] And, kind of mask what we have to deal with, to move forward. And for me it was, it was, growing up in a, in a family, where there was mental illness, there was, there was addiction, there was depression. Just try to stay away from it and go to far corners of the house just to be away from it. There were five of us in the family. I was the youngest in the family, and for me it was easy to escape as the youngest person, and just kind of find my own little area of the house to be in and then do my own thing.
[00:05:58] But you know, it's like depression and addiction as you know, when you experience it and you move forward, there's lots of different things that you can learn from it. And I think it took me a long time to learn the things I needed to learn to move forward and in very proactive ways in my life.
[00:06:21] Erich Wenzel: Yeah, it's a hard thing because when it's just around, you're in every environment, you can't really, there's no escape from it. Like if it's at school or somewhere else like that, it's like your, your area of, safety is compromised and so all you can do is just kind of. Close yourself off as much as you can, and it's, it's definitely a hard thing to be around then.
[00:06:46] And one of the books I had recently read over 2019 was called the, I don't want to talk about it by Terrence real. I found that book to be super insightful for stuff like this. We're dealing with family trauma or just abusive relationships within the family unit to kind of recontextualize what depression or mental illness might look like. The premise of the book for those who are not familiar is the difference between covert or overt depression. And most of us are familiar with overt depression, which is the standard signs, whereas covert depression winds up looking at the complete opposite, where they become workaholics or abusive, stuff like that.
[00:07:25]we're like destructive forces to those around them. And. You know, that's kinda what it sounds like you're describing is this opposite end of the spectrum to some degree.
[00:07:35] Andy Vasily:Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting because, you know, having lived around the world, I, I, you know, we've lived in five different countries and I think that you see the way different cultures deal with these things.
[00:07:49] A lot of culture is really shutting it down and you don't talk about it. It's never a topic of discussion, whereas I think North America is probably in North America, Australia, New Zealand. I think
[00:08:06]Dealing with these things in a positive way where there are still a lot of cultures that put them on the back burner and don't want to deal with them, you know, and the only way forward is to deal with them and to learn about them and, to discuss them with those that matter most and to make yourself vulnerable and ask for help when you need it.
[00:08:28]and those are the big things that I learned over the years. To really connect with people that have gone through the same thing and then to have discussions. And you're not going to walk away from these discussions with the answer, but you will walk away from these discussions with a sense of inner peace knowing that somebody else has experienced something similar.
[00:08:53] You know, it might be, it might be a different type of addiction. It might be a different type of depression, but at least it's, you know, you're speaking the same language, you know, and, and, and learning from each other's stories. And I think that's the key is to put it on the table rather than, you know, brush it off into a corner under the rug.
[00:09:17] Because when you do that, it doesn't work. And it leads to further dysfunction and, further baggage and more anxiety.
[00:09:26] Why focus on mental health?
[00:09:26] Erich Wenzel: Like for me, when I wouldn't, the reason I kinda got into this whole mental illness or mental health space was a relationship of mine. I had gotten into a relationship and she was, for all intents and purposes, completely fine and I would never have known. And then all of a sudden she came out and told me that she had severe anxiety and depression and she was taking medications for it and kind of went through the gamut of like growing up with this thing or being diagnosed with.
[00:09:52] So this is a severe medication resistant version of it, and I got to see not only what the standard medical practices do to people, but then also the stigma around it where she was not even comfortable sharing anything about it because she thought I was going to judge her for it. And. That drove me to want to understand because I was once curious because I'm like, how could someone have this debilitating disease?
[00:10:18] But for all other outwardly signs, this person should be able to Excel in society is kind of the way I saw it. You know? Because this person had taken this identity of this disease and that kept them from achieving in school as much as they'd want it to because they're anxious or things like that.
[00:10:35] And so for me that that's kind of where this entry point came in. Whereas because I cared about someone, I wanted to be able to understand them, and all of a sudden that opened up all of this extra stuff about being vulnerable and, and not being so afraid because they think half of this comes from. The stigma that the person who has had these feelings says, why am I different?
[00:10:59] Or why can't I just be happy? And I think that's the wrong way to go about it. And because it's not fair for one, that person, because to look at someone else and say that they're probably happy all the time, it's not, it's not true regardless of diagnosis or not, you know, we, it's, I think it's just kind of managing your speed bumps is probably a better way of looking at it.
[00:11:17] New Year's Resolutions
[00:11:17] Andy Vasily: Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it and managing the speed bumps and, and, one of the things that I've learned this year in regards to what you're saying, managing the speed bumps, is this idea of new year's resolutions. And what a perfect time to talk about it. I'm in Hiroshima, Japan, 90 minutes away from New year's.
[00:11:36] I think you're 15 hours away. Still time zone wrong tonight. But, but it's this idea of. I am not setting a new year's resolution this year because new, you know, whenever we begin to set these big goals in our life, they always seem to be a start and stop at the end of a so-called cycle. So I might be at the end of the first term of university, you know, you start the winter semester, then you conclude it, and then you start a new cycle, and then you have all of these goals.
[00:12:10] Or it might be. At the end of the winter holidays when you've indulged in a lot of food and a lot of drink and you put on a few pounds, and then suddenly you want to set this huge goal for yourself. And ultimately we know based on research that you know, 70 to 80% of new year's resolutions fail within 15 days.
[00:12:32] Moral Weigh Stations
[00:12:32] Because it's this big goal kind of thinking, right? And there's nothing wrong with setting goals. I am a huge believer in setting goals, but the way I'm looking at it now, was swayed and impacted by some, some reading that I had done a few months ago by Michael Murphy. Have you ever heard of the Esalen Institute in California?
[00:12:56]Michael Murphy talked about, having these, these moral waste stations. So you're driving your car down the freeway, you know, or your, the trucks are going down the freeway and then they have to pull off into a weigh station.
[00:13:09] They get weighed and they move on. And that's how I'm looking at this.
[00:13:14]I'm going to pull over. I'm going to go into this waste station just to kind of evaluate what I'm carrying with me, what I need to tweak, what I need to modify, what I need to let go. But it's more obviously the truck. If it's going to pull off the road and go to the waste station, it has a destination.
[00:13:34] So on my own pursuit and my own destination of where I'm going, this is just a checkpoint. You know, along the way. So I'm not going to set this big resolution if I want to eat better, I'm not gonna put this huge pressure on myself to eat vegan just because it's good for me.
[00:13:54] I'm just going to choose to eat better. Yeah. And then check-in along the way. And it's okay if you mess up, it's okay if you screw up, you don't judge yourself. You'll learn from it, but you try not to repeat the same mistakes.
[00:14:10]So I think when, you know, if we kind of go back to the darkness thing, if our goal is mental wellness, then we just have to continually check in and allow ourselves, I guess time to make mistakes. we know we're going to make mistakes and, and just learn and move forward.
[00:14:33] And reflect and continue to check in with ourselves. So that's how I'm looking at new years. This year is resident, you know, this new year's.
[00:14:43] Two week experiments
[00:14:43] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. That's interesting. I really liked that idea of, like checking in with yourself. I like to think about it, and this is taken from Tim Ferris, but he does like two week experiments.
[00:14:53] Like if you're trying to create any new habits. Instead of doing, you know, like this big goal thing, like I'm going to do this for three months or I'm going to do this for six months. He says, no, do something small. Like make it like one small little tweak. Do it for about two weeks and if you feel better but are enjoying doing it over those two weeks, then you keep doing it and you just keep doing that over and over again.
[00:15:14] And eventually you'll find something that sticks or a version of the thing that you're trying to accomplish that's gonna stick for you because. I think that's a lot of the problem is when people get started into something, they have one day where they slip up in a like, wow, look it, I'm so undisciplined and I'm so, so this, that and the other thing, like, I'll just keep missing up or whatever.
[00:15:37] And I just think they talk themselves out of continuing from one mistake, which is totally fine in the grand scheme of things, if you really committed to something over the long term.
[00:15:47] Andy Vasily: and new year's resolution, bang, you're going to be spot on for six, seven days in a row. You know, you'll eat well, you'll go to the gym every day. You'll stay on, on schedule with your running, whatever it is. But then when you do slip up, which inevitably you're going to slip up, you know, when you look at it more in terms of the long run, then you're not gonna self judge and you're, you're going to allow yourself some freedom and some space. But then it's like getting back on. Getting back on track right away. Yep.
[00:16:19]That you wouldn't get is what's most important. And I think that's what I'm really learning, you know? And, and really accepting and really embracing and, you know, for, for you, it. With the work you're doing to know this, or I wish I would've known this, you know, when I was out at the university because it would have made such a massive difference.
[00:16:42] But I think that's that everything we're learning about peak performance and, you know, being our best. Is deeply rooted in self-forgiveness, is deeply rooted in this long term vision, of what we need to focus on in order to, achieve the success that we want to achieve.
[00:17:05] What is performance?
[00:17:05] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. It's kind of a weird, weird thing for me because this, this path that I've taken in, into this idea of like, what is performance is.
[00:17:14] Is a long one. Honestly, like I, I'd never would've, I'd never would've thought I'd even be anywhere close to talking about things like this or even this interested in performance like this. And you know, to be frankly honest, I had a fixed mindset in a very specific category when it came to movement for 21 years of my life, I would look at, I look at other students and then we talked about that in part one.
[00:17:36] And then that was kind of what was the catalyst for everything here. And a lot of that was. Basically be summed up, I gave myself the okay to try and to not look at someone else and say they weren't like me. I mean, realistically that is a true statement. Nobody is like you, so you kind of just have to figure things out on your own with your own accord and your own drive and just.
[00:18:02] Understand that it's a process and sometimes the hardest thing to do is just to take the first step, because once you take the first step, then the second step has a little bit more momentum behind it and so on and so forth.
[00:18:13] Creating a vision for movement
[00:18:13] Andy Vasily: So how do you feel that you were able to, to realize that putting into action?
[00:18:22] Erich Wenzel: I would probably say I'm a really self-driven person, but the other part of it was it was a really futuring I, this is from my work with Compete to Create that. I figured this out though, but it was having a vision for movement specifically. I remember looking at my coworkers and seeing them sitting in their cubicles and working like eight hours a day sitting behind a desk.
[00:18:44] Not being super active. Many of them were in there like maybe early thirties or so, and I started seeing their expanding waistlines and they would complain about back pain or joint pain and they had just gotten kids or some close to that and I was like, man, that seems so young too. To have these problems.
[00:19:06] And I was like, well, I don't want to be that dad who can't even go outside and run and play with his kids. And so I looked at my life and said, well, here's this big category called exercise or working out that I haven't touched with a 10 foot pole, but right now it seems to be the best time ever because I'm working already in my field.
[00:19:27] I got about two, three more years of college to finish. And that's as good a time as any to try and make this habit. Because once I finish school, I'm not going to get any business, like not busier. Basically, he's not going to just evaporate all of this busy-ness that's going to happen in my life. So if I can create a habit now while I'm balancing work in school, then by the time I am 30.
[00:19:48] It will be a no, no big deal to keep this habit going. And so that's why that's, that's what I did. I'm still doing, I'm 26 to this day, almost 27 a couple of months, and that's the whole reason. It's not about being like a bodybuilder or an Olympic weight lifter or whatever. It's just like, how do you do this so you can keep your body moving?
[00:20:10] At a functional level for as long as you can.
[00:20:14] The Power of Physical Activity
[00:20:14] Andy Vasily: Yeah. That's, that's a beautiful way to look at it. And that's exactly the work that I'm doing, you know, and the work that I'm doing is all about how I can work with teachers. So I do a lot of work with physical education departments around the world, and I'm going to Korea and the reason why I'm going to Korea is to work with the school.
[00:20:35] So I just kind of planned this trip around that consulting work. And you know, Dr John Ratey, have you heard the podcast with Dr John Ratey with Michael Gervais?
[00:20:45] Erich Wenzel: I think I did. Listen to that. Yeah.
[00:20:47] Andy Vasily: So Doctor John Ratey is from Harvard school of education, and he is one of the first researchers and scientists to look deeply into the power of physical activity in our lives.
[00:21:04] And when we continue to, you know, I guess when I go back to my, the darkness and the depression, the one thing that was a guiding reference point for me was physical activity and sport through it all. And you know, I did my Ted talk, I talked about, which was very difficult to do, but I talked about, you know, my one brother dying of, addiction and my other brother committing suicide.
[00:21:32] And I had to really reflect deeply on my own life after I lost my second brother. It was the hardest thing to kind of look at. What was it within myself that allowed me to move forward. In ways that my brothers couldn't, and I, I really looked hard. And then I realize, well, from as early as I can remember, I was outdoors and moving.
[00:22:00] I was riding a bike site and then I led to riding bikes and climbing cliffs and climbing trees and playing soccer and football and whatever I could do. And that was my escape. From the house, you know? And then that led to playing American football, which I say American football because we're abroad, right?
[00:22:23] But that led to me playing American football. I was a quarterback and a punter. And, and that led to me playing at the collegiate level five years as a quarterback and a punter. And I had a pro tryout. And. That was really my saving grace. And I realized that after my brother Chris died, in 2014, the one that committed suicide, and I realize, Oh my God, I've been blessed with a moving body and I've been blessed with finding the power and movement and John Ratey, going back to Dr. John Ratey, now it's brain science.
[00:23:05] I mean the impact of physical activity. The neurochemistry of our brain is extraordinary, and they're figuring out more and more day by day. They're finding out so much more about the impact of physical activity on the brain. So you know, what you're describing. And you know, being active in exercising speaks volumes for what people need to do in their darkest moments.
[00:23:37] You know, and my brother who committed suicide, his happiest times were when he was working out regularly, and he had done it for about five years, five or six years, and then he stopped doing it. And you know, it's just like this thing that you just gotta have in your darkest moments when it's so hard to get out of bed.
[00:24:00] And it's the middle of winter and it's dark outside. All you have to do is to put your body into an erect position and put your feet on the floor, and then that's the first step to move towards the door. You know, and I, I firmly believe this and I share this. Every talk that I give, every presentation that I give, I share this with educators around the world.
[00:24:27] Physical Activity and Mindfulness
[00:24:27] Erich Wenzel: I think it's a really powerful story because we don't think how powerful movement is because of a lot of them. People in modern society contextualize working out in the wrong way. And just that exact sentence. It's working out. So it sounds like extra work. When you have a job, you're already tired most of the time, or you don't, you just don't feel like you should be going to do these things.
[00:24:52] And I started recontextualizing this word recently with, you know, how the. Do they compete to create team kinds of calls? It is like moving well, or you can just call that movement because I think that adds a barrier of entry for someone who may not, may not want to be an athlete or older. So that idea of being an athlete is out of their frame of reference.
[00:25:15] So that lowers that entry point, that so much that whatever you do, however you do it, and we kind of pre-phase this in the first episode is really helpful. And then kind of going back as you're explaining that with like this new neuroscience overlay on what is happening in the body, it reminds me of the quote, get out of the mind and into the body, and I'm not 100% sure who first quoted that, but.
[00:25:43] I heard that on Tim Ferriss' podcast many, almost two years ago now, and I haven't even been working out for a little while, and this is before all of the mindfulness and mindset craze has kind of started taking over the world. I think Headspace had probably just been around for a couple of years at that point, and I was like, huh, that's interesting because I hadn't gotten into mindfulness or meditation yet, and I was like, you know what?
[00:26:06] That does seem about right because I feel better when I go to the gym, even if it's days that I don't feel like I really want to be there, even if I'm there for just 30 minutes during like whatever I need to do to get done, you know, check a box, you know, cause we all have those days. I did feel a lot better.
[00:26:22] And so I started talking about it to my friends and saying like, do you know, does it feel like a Zen moment for you? Cause I remember it was like, it was my early earliest forms of, for me of like finding this point where I could just go to the gym, put on like a music or a podcast and just kind of forget about what was going on in my brain and just be, you know, focusing on the movement of the weight or how, like how is my gait on the treadmill if I'm trying to like do runs or something.
[00:26:47] And just kind of check out like the frontal lobe of my brain, which as an engineer and someone who's pretty electrical, being able to shut off your brain for any amount of time is pretty spectacular. So I couldn't recommend it enough for most people.
[00:27:03] Answering questions while running
[00:27:03] Andy Vasily: And what I would, what I would say. And I think for, for me it was kind of the same thing. Like I shut down a lot of thinking when I was exercising, but then my most, I, I don't want to say my most profound moments, but I would say some pretty impactful moments in my life came when I was. I didn't listen to music, you know, so if I had a burning question in my life, whether it be a personal or a professional question about something I needed to answer or figure out, if, if I just put the music away and the podcast away and I said, okay.
[00:27:43] Here is my burning question, and then I set out on my eight mile run. You know, it's amazing. If I stick to that, you talk about mindfulness and motion meditation and most motion, you know, there's no one definition of meditation and today, you know what you're describing about. You know, just wanting to get out and go do it.
[00:28:07] And it's difficult. So we're in Japan. We're at our host family here in Japan. They're beautiful people. We've known them for 20 years. Last night I was, I had some Japanese rice wine, some Sockeye with my host family father. And, we were just reminiscing on old times and both their family and my family had been through a lot, you know, so, and we'd been there for each other over the years, and we were just reflecting on our lives and the fact that we've known each other for 20 years.
[00:28:40] And that. My family is back in Japan visiting them. So we had quite a bit of soccer, and then I woke up in the morning and I thought, Oh my God, I feel like shit. I feel like shit. But I know that the mountain that we run up for the last 20 years is right behind us. And, and. My, I woke my wife up and then she went and got coffee and then we started on this run up the mountain and it's, so, it's a beast of a mountain behind us.
[00:29:11] We made it to the top. As I was thinking about the question, these answers are coming to my mind and I'm just running through the trails and I'm getting all of these ideas, and that has been what I've done the last 10 years, as I set out when I really need to focus on a question in my life. I set out with no music, no podcasts, and I just let the answer.
[00:29:36]but it's going back to this idea of we don't necessarily have to shut the brain down to thinking we can have this reference point. And, and we can say, okay, today in my workout, whatever I'm doing, this is my burning question.
[00:29:53] This is what I'm going to think about. And the answers will come to you because everything lights up in the brain and you're at your creative best when you're running and moving. You know? And that's, that's the power of movement in itself. So it can be used to spark creativity and deepen creativity and to give you the answers that you need.
[00:30:15] But in meditation, when we return to the breath. . Use this, this kind of like driving question, strategy. You just returned back to the question rather than the breath. So he get distracted, returned. You returned to the question, and that's what I do because I get distracted. And when I was running down the Hill, the mountain today, I got distracted.
[00:30:36]Oh, there is my question. I need to have to, I'm not giving me a solution, but to help me in what I need to know.
[00:30:43] Erich Wenzel: That's so cool. I really liked that. I never even thought about it that way before, but it makes a lot of sense because what meditation and mindfulness is supposed to be teaching you is how to focus better.
[00:30:54] Because how many times do we focus on our breath? And so if we can learn how to focus, you know, the easy answer is focused on your breath, then you can then transition that. Awareness basically on to anything. And it makes a lot of sense because that's where if it's a deeply focus, is to deeply think, and therefore you can solve just about any problem if you're able to just kind of put as much of your horsepower, if that's what the analogy you want to put on it on to that problem.
[00:31:26] Positive Psychology
[00:31:26] Andy Vasily: Exactly. So, so. or what's it called that you have going into the new year?
[00:31:36] Erich Wenzel: Honestly, it's been a lot of thinking on how to understand a lot of this positive psychology. So we're, we're w we're reading the book Flourish right now and, and compete to create. Yeah. And I've been thinking about how to make some of these ideas more accessible to just about every person, because I, you know, this book is kind of old at this point, but I'm not all, it's a couple of years old at this point, but the research seems to be, be around since like.
[00:32:05] 2009 I'm like, why? How is this the first time I've ever heard of this stuff? And then all of a sudden it's like I'm, the more I read this book, the more I'm like, Hey, I kind of do all of these things. And then it seems like I'm predisposed to kind of having some of these same ideas or use these tools already without, meaning it.
[00:32:23] And so I kind of try to, how do I take what I do innately and package that in a way that makes it like teachable or trainable for other people.
[00:32:35] Andy Vasily: So do you, and I don't want to get off topic with the podcast, but I just have questions for you, but, when you say how do you do, what's innate? Was that always with you or was it something that you work to develop, over the years?
[00:32:52] Because it sounds like you learned a lot. And then you continue to, learn these things and apply what you're learning. So you consider it innate now, but I think it sounds like you worked hard to develop that. Yeah. Or did you always have it?
[00:33:10] Innate or learned behavior?
[00:33:10] Erich Wenzel: I would say for the most part, I'm a pretty optimistic or positive person, so that's why I would say innate where it's like I'm able to kind of brush off against failure.
[00:33:19] I think my biggest detractor growing up was the, the self critic, of holding my own self back out of either fear or some other negative emotion, be it anxiety or, you know, just psychologically closing myself off from certain topics. That was my, I think that was my biggest problem, where I really didn't.
[00:33:41] Like, for instance, when I graduated college or high school, I didn't know what I wanted to pick for a degree, but I knew I wanted to pick something that was as broad as possible that would open as many doors, but I had so many different ideas because as you can tell by this podcast, my, my curiosity and depth of topics is ridiculous.
[00:34:01] Like, I am interested in almost any and every subject you could, you could ever ask on the planet. I could find something interesting that will capture my attention. So that was really hard for me to want to just pick a singular topic going into college, but I knew that whatever I decided to pick, I would be able to come out.
[00:34:17] The end of it was the degree, didn't matter what it was, and I don't know where that comes from because up until that point in college, I kind of just assumed, I'm like. I had a baseline level of intelligence, but I just knew that if I put my time and effort into something, I would be able to come out the other side and be able to perform within the top, you know, like 80% or whatever.
[00:34:40] I think because I didn't know my own work ethic is that I'll just figure it out. Like when the going gets tough, I'll just put my head to the grindstone and keep going, which is a very working out mentality, but I just have that kind of trait about me.
[00:34:54] Andy Vasily: Yeah. And that's, that's very cool. And when you say that you want to be able to teach others how to apply it, I guess my biggest thing is that I've done the same over the years with my consulting, and it was always about how can I teach others?
[00:35:11] How can I teach it to them? But ultimately, the question came back to what do I need to know, learn more about myself? In order to teach it better. So I flipped that desire to want to help others apply it to what I need to learn about myself, before I can apply it . Right? And then once I can learn more about myself, and then I feel I can deliver what I've learned more naturally to others. Right. So, and that's just an endless pursuit of learning about oneself.
[00:35:51] Right?
[00:35:52] Erich Wenzel: I just think for me it's just, I just have a really deep seated responsibility for like, I can't honestly sit across from anyone. And like, even in this podcast, like what I talk about is, is what I do for the most part. Like, I can't. Like I hold myself to such a higher standard that I will never say anything unless it's like just factually incorrect.
[00:36:13] Like I just didn't understand it well enough that I have to be doing a thing before I can even ever suggest it to someone else. Or if I have liked to read the research and say, okay, here's like what the research might be saying. I haven't done it, but this might seem like a positive thing. Like I like to do my homework.
[00:36:32] And the, one of the things that really struck me over the last couple of years was like basically people who can aggregate the internet. Which is like what are all the good things that see everyone like a certain subsection of people seem to be doing or pursuing, and it seems to be like these little nexus points of all the things that seem to be working and okay, let's keep pulling on those threads and keep finding all the things that keep working and compounded on each other because the, we can just keep getting better basically.
[00:37:00] Giving away what you know
[00:37:00] Andy Vasily: Yeah. And that's ultimately what peak performance is all about. Right?
[00:37:05] Erich Wenzel: So yeah, that's just kind of a little insight into how I think or why, why it is that I do what I do for a lot of this stuff and kind of give it away to the world without even asking for anything.
[00:37:17] Andy Vasily: Yeah. And that's, I think that's when you, when you, and that's one of the things that I've done over the years is, you know, when I started my blog, I started my blog in two thousand. Nothing that I wanted in return for starting my blog. I just started my blog and I was blogging. Then I found as I was writing every day nonstop, I was learning so much about the way that I was teaching and I was just putting it out there, you know, uncensored thoughts about the way I was teaching, and I didn't even think.
[00:37:50] For a second about how this is going to impact other people. And then slowly my blog started to kind of gain some traction. And, and then even though I knew it was gaining traction, I continued to just write for myself and put it out. And I think that was one of the things that. it's just a self-learning, this journey of self-learning, and then you realize, Oh, well actually, as I share this self-learning, others are learning from me.
[00:38:23] And then it's a bit of a sense of empowerment a bit. It's like. Oh, this is great. Now. Now I'm, I know I'm writing for an audience and that motivates me and inspires me to write for the audience, but I can't lose sight of writing for me.
[00:38:38] Because if I start trying to produce content for others with, with ed, just to push content out, I become disconnected with my purpose, and that's where I've been the last few years.
[00:38:53] You know? Trying to stay connected to my purpose, which is learning, you know? And that's how I have to keep reminding myself to stay anchored in what matters most. You know? And it is, I am doing this for me. I'm learning, but the byproduct is impacting others. The byproduct is going to do my consulting work.
[00:39:21] but I really enjoy the process along the way. It's, it's so powerful. And when I slip out of a routine where I'm not doing this, then I get a little complacent. And, and that's when the darkness comes in and really, like when, when I stopped. Doing what I love doing and doing what I'm passionate about, you know?
[00:39:41] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. I couldn't agree more like starting the website and the podcast was, it was my foray into writing myself because again, kind of going back to like learning and. Looking at your weaknesses I always viewed weakness, like writing as a weakness or at the very least, like categorically speaking, if I'm a technical minded person as an engineer.
[00:40:02] So that puts a really specific image for most people. You know, you're good with numbers, you're good with things and working with your hands possibly, but you're not good with words. Like you're not good with verbal communication or even written communication. And that was very much true for the most part for me.
[00:40:17] Even though I am a voracious reader, It took me a long time to get good at the nitty gritty of writing, basically like finding my own voice, understanding sentence structure and things like that. And again, I kind of just applied the just grinding out mentality of like, okay, well you just kind of got to start doing this.
[00:40:40] And just. know, that you're going to suck and you're going to have, the more you do it, the better you'll get at it. And, and then just do edit after edit or whatever it takes. Even, if you don't know what to edit out of it, just put it out in the wild and then keep going. Just keep moving. Cause like when this piece feels done, it feels done.
[00:41:01] And, it's been super powerful for me because I, I just use that as another tool to be able to craft your thoughts, you know, basically taking your thoughts out of your brain and making them understandable by another person. Be it in words like verbal communication or be it in written text format. And you know, it's the, I kind of this chase to be as well rounded of a person as you could ever be.
[00:41:22] And I just think writing is one of those really powerful things that in many ways like conversation where we are losing because of how short a format we have in the world today. Where we don't have enough of this reflective period to be able to think in long form to understand like why did I do that?
[00:41:40] Or why did I make that choice? Or why do I feel sad? You know, if we're going to keep pulling on the mental health thread, it's like you've got to look back and have reflection time. Is where you kind of gained the most, and like you said, self-learning. And so it's been a lot of fun to see the progression for myself.
[00:41:56] Self learning
[00:41:56] Andy Vasily: And that's a key. And it's just continuing that, that journey. And that's. That's the pursuit that I am on. And I'm trying to share that with my boys who are 16 and 14. And, and just really trying to show them the importance of those things.
[00:42:18] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. That's interesting. It seems like such a different paradigm that we're seeing lately is.
[00:42:26] I just remember in school, like certain things about writing felt so dated or unapproachable with such strict, grammar rules and things like that, it just did not interest me. It was just too like, it just didn't feel like it had a purpose. I guess if they didn't, they didn't give you the application, which is a huge thing for me.
[00:42:47] And like I didn't understand like, well, it's like I don't know what I'm writing, so I can't understand why I would want to need to put a comma in the sentence basically. And I just think it's such a cool way that you're, you're be able to train or like, not even trained, but like expose your sons to these ideas at such an early age that even if they're not like doing it now, it's going to plant a seed for them in the future. That they'll actually be able to value it and be able to go deeper on it with someone.
[00:43:17] Having the right tools
[00:43:17] Andy Vasily: Yeah. It's building the tools. Right. And that's what I'm trying to do, and that's what my wife's trying to do. To develop tools and to build our knowledge of the tools. To apply the tools in our own lives and to model what that's like and then to have conversations with our boys and with our students about those things.
[00:43:39] Erich Wenzel: That's cool. So the other thing we've kind of talked about, and I just remembered it now, was you kind of mentioned having like running with your wife, you know, in Japan. And I think that's a really cool thing because a lot of what we've been talking about sounds like this idea of having mental flushes.
[00:43:57] So, so to speak, like when the darkness comes knocking, you either need to have. Enough of your own willpower or like a habitual thing in place to go and be like, well, this is what I do at this time. Every day. Or if this starts happening, I'm going to go out for a run and clear my head. And I've been noticing for myself like these triggers that just kind of remove any of the baggage or negative emotions that may have accumulated over like a day, say like a work hour or work day, like over an eight hour period.
[00:44:31]You know, like for me it's like working out or having certain friends that you can kind of, no matter what you do, it doesn't even matter if you're doing anything. You can kind of meet up with that person, grab some lunch, and you know that by the end of it, you're just going to feel better because all you do with that person is laugh and have a good time.
[00:44:47] And it's not like it's a, it has to be anything like that. And, or. But I'm just curious as you look at it in this way or if you have any other tricks up your sleeve to kind of flush the negativity away.
[00:45:01] Andy's Routines
[00:45:01] Andy Vasily: Yeah, I think it, it goes back to that idea of just being consistent with, with exercise. Cause I know it works for me and I tinkered with.
[00:45:12] You know, I like to do the early morning runs, so I'll wake up at 4:40 in the morning, I'll get a coffee, I'll try to get out the door at 5:00 AM, but I might have another coffee, and then I'm out of five 20, whatever. but I, it's just as early morning exercise is key. But then over the last year, what I've tried to do more of is, is an evening run.
[00:45:36] And I was never, I was always a morning runner. And then I thought, if I do this evening run, it's great because then I'm checking the box for the run. Right. But then I found that the evening runs were helping me declutter, you know, and, and really like, you know, just, I don't know, de filter decluttered do whatever I need to do to, kind of learn from the day.
[00:46:03] Yeah. And then, and then go home and have a good sleep. And then in the morning, rather than running, I'd go to the gym the next morning, so now I can double up, double down, you know, kind of thing. Right. So, then I started to tinker around with different ways of doing that. And, there's some days where I'll run to the gym, which is about, you know, probably only two miles, but I'll, I'll run to the gym, have a workup for 30 minutes, and I'll run home.
[00:46:35] And that's kind of trying to pack in a lot, in a short time before work. So. I'm still trying to figure out the best formula, but there is no right answer. It's just whatever is best. Sometimes I'm motivated to wake up, run to the gym, workout, run back home. But you know, my advice, what has worked for me is to try to figure it out.
[00:47:01] Like don't just sit down and do nothing. Try to figure out what works for you and, and to continue to tinker and refine what you do in order to find the right recipe that works for you. And right now, for me, it's. It's more running at night in the morning and lifting weights in the running at night and lifting weights in the morning.
[00:47:28] Giving yourself permission to explore
[00:47:28] Erich Wenzel: Yeah, that's a really good point. I think a lot of people too, we kind of get stuck in the idea that you pick one category, especially if it's something that, like you work out whatever you happen to start in a lot of people, it's weightlifting, at least if you're working out post high school, you know, you get stuck in like Olympic weightlifting or bodybuilding style.
[00:47:48] And a lot of people kind of have identity foreclosure and say, Oh, I can't, like I, I'm a weightlifter. I don't do anything else. but there's so many more tools available to us now, be it yoga, be it running, be it CrossFit or any of the other functional stuff like kettlebells and things like that. So I would implore people to kind of.
[00:48:06] If there's something of interest in any other category, just pick it up, whatever it is, and just dabble. And at the very least, go to YouTube videos and see what other people are doing or use Instagram, I think is a really useful tool to kind of bridge the gap.
[00:48:21] And the other thing I would say is like, not being afraid to like want to. Just try, like giving yourself permission just to go in and want to do something is I think huge because it just gives yourself the opportunity to even like walk through that door or cross the finish line for that matter. Cause I did a lot of this stuff. So like to go more into my story one year from deciding to enter the gym, I was like, okay, I need to give myself a goal, like a short term goal, like you're talking about.
[00:48:54] To kind of reiterate on this new year's stuff. And I found out about tough Mudder. I remember watching a video on a travel channel a year ago and was like, wow, that's insane. I'd never do that. I distinctly remember that thought and. I just remember thinking about it and being like, Oh, that's the thing I can do because here's this, this perfect blend of pushing myself mentally because it's going to be like a 10 mile run and mud water.
[00:49:22] But also it's like, had I trained my body to do something I never thought it would possibly do. And, and meaning I had never run more than one mile. Up until. I had done my five K in preparation to, to do the tough butter. So I basically went almost 21 years without ever running more than one mile that we have to do for our physical fitness tests.
[00:49:46] And even then, I was only getting maybe like 10 minute miles, like, it's not like I'm blazing fast or good was ever good at running back then. And then here I was, this person who thought I could never be a runner or athletic, broadly speaking. I get to tough Mudder, I'd already done a five K and run it at like an eight minute pace, and then all of a sudden I had convinced a couple of my friends to on top of that, which made like all gravy on it because tough Mudder is all about teamwork and pushing each other just to get to the finish line.
[00:50:19] And I thought it was this perfect capstone of basically warding myself against the vein pursuit of what. Working out could be, you know, just working out for working out sake. And I did that in a super functional way and also got a lot closer to my friends in the process because we were like, accomplishing something difficult together.
[00:50:42] Power of social interaction
[00:50:42] Andy Vasily: Yeah. That's that social interaction piece, right? Yeah. Which is huge when it comes to physical activity is having that social interaction piece. Either it be one friend or a group of friends or even if you're running alone. But that another friend is running 15 minutes after you or whatever, you're still kind of pushing each other to, you know, be active and do these things.
[00:51:11] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. It's really, it's really powerful, you know, and I feel incredibly fortunate having the, the social bonds that I do have with some of my friends. Like one of my friends, I'll have to give him a shout out here, cause he's been on the podcast, his name is Mike Taccona and he was like a, a really good baseball player.
[00:51:28] Always hyper athletic. But there was something about his personality. He was always a lot like way above and beyond my athletic abilities, especially in high school because that's where we met and became friends. But he was never the kind of person to hold it over another person and use it as an ego boost.
[00:51:47] Like, Oh, I can do it better than you. His personality was much more in the sense of like. He was cheering you on and it didn't matter that he could do more than you. It was more of like, he's there to help you, just push yourself a little bit more. And that was kind of one of the things that really helped me, like deconstructing my own mental image of myself basically is having someone like him who I viewed as being a way above me, and then he's just there pushing me to be better.
[00:52:22] Andy Vasily: Yeah, supportive, you know? And that's, that's the key, you know, and that's, that's what we need to do.
[00:52:30] Erich Wenzel: It's, it's really fun. All right, Andy, we're almost at another full hour and we could definitely go on for many more hours. I want to do some wrap up with some of my more general questions like, any other recommended books or books you've gifted the most to people?
[00:52:47] Recommended Books
[00:52:47] Andy Vasily: I would say Tuesdays with Morrie. Would be, have you heard of that one?
[00:52:52] Erich Wenzel: I have not heard of that one.
[00:52:53] Andy Vasily: Okay. Tuesdays with Morrie is by a deep Detroit to a free press journalist. Mitch Albom is his name. And, you know, that's my go-to book. And that is a book that I wrapped up and sent to multiple friends over the years.
[00:53:12] And it's the story of a, It's a true story, of a professor in university. The student who is Mitch Albom goes on to write a book about it, but, like the researcher, the lecture has Lou Gehrig's disease. So Mitch Albom documents the journey of him literally dying, but Mitch Albom being by his side throughout the journey.
[00:53:42] And, and, the professor shares all of his life lessons. It's a beautiful book and I highly recommend it.
[00:53:51] Erich Wenzel: Yeah. I'll definitely have to look that into that one. I love stories like that, you know, deep and profound and meaningful. Yeah. and then to finally wrap up. If you were to give advice to a smart, driven, even not really college age, but just to paint the picture of a college age student who's maybe just entering the real world for the first time, what advice would you give them or what would you tell them to ignore?
[00:54:18] Advice to someone entering the "real" world?
[00:54:18] Andy Vasily: I would say, I don't want to say ignore your device because it's going to be hard to do because we live with devices now. I would say definitely keep a journal. Ignore your device when possible. When you go out with friends for dinner, be the first one to not have your phone on the table so that you can truly listen.
[00:54:43] Because, you know, even when we make a conscious decision to, okay, I'm not going to look at my phone. The fact that your phone is on the table, even if you flip it upside down and you can see the alerts, you're still distracted. Be the first one to pull your phone off the table, put it in your backpack, or put it in your purse and resist the temptation to pull it out.
[00:55:11] And when your friend goes to the bathroom or your friends go to the bathroom, whatever, when you're alone at the table. Don't pull it out. Look around you. Be present. Observe others, observe the interactions of others, and the first thing you will see is people on their devices, right?
[00:55:36] You'll look at the table beside you and you'll see a couple, you know, having dinner and they're on their devices.
[00:55:44] And it's shocking, you know, and we've lost the ability to connect with strangers. we've lost the ability to deeply connect with others because our device is so addictive. And I've had my Google phone and I left my iPhone last year. But what I'm saying is like my goal now, when we go out for family dinners, there are no devices, absolutely no devices allowed.
[00:56:14] And I even tell my boys, you know, when we're sitting at a dinner table, I say, okay, I think they see that most of the tables have at least one person on their device. So. Yes, we need devices, but my advice to a young person in university is, and this is a powerful skill that you can develop listening and communicating. And be the first one to keep your phone off the table in your bag and do not touch it until you're walking home on your own.
[00:56:47] And then check Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and Snapchat and all that, you know? So that's my biggest advice and I still work hard to do that myself, but I feel much better when I, I stick to to that.
[00:57:02]Erich Wenzel: Yeah, that's a powerful statement. I think, you know, I've had this intuition that anyone who can learn to manage the devices and the apps on our phones more effectively, are going to be the ones who are successful and in the next generation of, of people?
[00:57:16] Because you know, these devices are basically dopamine drips to our brain, and they push all the right buttons and it's up to us too. Figuring out ways that we can limit their impact on our lives, or at least the negative impact they have on our lives. Because obviously they do so much for us. They can, we wouldn't be able to have this conversation that we're having right now if we didn't have these devices.
[00:57:41] So yeah. So it's, it's a double edged sword and you gotta, you know, learn how to blunt one edge and keep the other edge sharp. This is awesome, Andy. I really appreciate you, one being able to make the time and to go, you know, halfway around the world and still making the time to get on the phone call with the 15 hour time difference.
[00:58:01] It's truly amazing and I'm honored.
[00:58:04] Andy Vasily: I know. I've enjoyed the conversation, Erich, and, I wish you the best of luck in 2020 man.
[00:58:09] Erich Wenzel: Yeah, you too. It's a feeding Curiosity has been a wild ride and it's not going anywhere in 2020 because you know, I'd be doing this anyways
[00:58:21] already. Everything and there are always option for around three day
[00:58:30] Andy Vasily: For sure. You just let me know and I'll be there.
[00:58:32] Erich Wenzel: Sounds good.
Coach Karlee is a movement coach who teaches her athletes to move their bodies as nature designed: strong, secure, pain-free, and forward. Utilizing slow-motion video assessment, she can assess, address, and correct pattern errors that are causing pain and/or hindering performance goals. With a background in soccer, endurance running, and strength and conditioning, Karlee takes an intense passion for competition and athletics into her coaching style to help build mentally and physically capable athletes, regardless of age, gender, sport, or background. She prioritizes foundations for durability through awareness and integration of pain-free movement practices to maximize performance and longevity. Are you ready to unlock your INNER ATHLETE?